Champion Infantry Spearman Attack repeat time changed from 750 to 900
Details
Details
Champion Infantry Spearman:
Their effectiveness is way superior to the Champion Infantry Swordman in almost any situation since rams can be destroyed with no problems from any kind of melee champion, while swordmen have no chance at all to win a fight with same number of units.
Despite the lower needed amount of low rate gathered resources in comparison to a swordman ( which may be justified by a concept design), a spearman has higher armor than a swordman (which may be justified to absorb the damage of Champion Cavalry) and same attack repeat time which creates ambiguity because spearman soldier citizens have way different attack rate if compared to swordman soldier citizens and their performance is obviously inferior in a fight against infantry and superior in a fight against cavalry (as intended). The result is that a champion infantr spearman has too good performance despite his price.
With this change, swordmen will win over spearmen exception done for factions with particulary technologies like Macedonians and Spartans who will have a non overwhelming victory like already happens in the current state of the game.
It is to underline that most of factions with infantry spear champions can make use of other champion units like mercenaries (expecially champion mercenary skirmishers which are extremly effective against melee units) while for some other factions swordmen are the only choice aviable.
Diff Detail
Diff Detail
- Repository
- rP 0 A.D. Public Repository
- Lint
Automatic diff as part of commit; lint not applicable. - Unit
Automatic diff as part of commit; unit tests not applicable.
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900 value sounds weird
Perhaps wait also new anims (see enrique)
and perhaps wait also for a fix of that unitAI issue (repeat time between the range check and the attack)
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Probably it isn't a "standard" value , indeed that value gives the intended efffect. Try to believe.
1000 Repeat Time would change the result and I guess that spending extra resources for a tech that brings nowhere isn't rewarding.
I didn't know that something was boiling in the pot.
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D20 is more about the Attack part (only for Range attacks).
Here I spoke about the 'double attack bug' (we discussed about that in the lobby one month ago, first reported by Grugnas iirc and you reproduced it). The fact that UnitAI do the range check just before waiting the next timer tick (so if the repeat time is long enough, the unit is yet far away when the attack - melee too - is performed). (That bug makes D20 worse).
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Well, i did more than 100 tests, here's my conclusion.
Champions infantry Spearman: Its function is to tanking damage and cause good damage (especially on horses). Swordsman has to beat them naturally, as they win when they are citizens units and so should continue (with RepeatTime 750, spearmans can in swordmans in same number).
I made some tests and verified that the changes are correct, while the swordman's function is to cause heavy damage, the spearmans can handle more damage.
Spearmans 50vs50 Swordmans, remains 8 - 10 Swordmans. But if u try Spearmans(50) + slings(30) vs Swordmans(50) + slings(30), you will see that Spearmans + slings win with a good advantage(because spearmans can tank more slings damage than swordmans).
Champions Cavalry Spearman and Cavalry Spearman Citizens: I try many and many tests, and no found solution. His biggest problem at the moment is that he loses to other horses, and his main job should be this. You can not change values without making you stronger against all other units.
If you change to 3000, it makes you stronger against everyone, and this is not the focus, I think it should have a small bonus against other cavalries(maybe 1.25x or 1.50x), so we do not have to make it stronger against the rest.
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Thanks for your extensive testing @borg-!
Mathmatically speaking it is true that one can't increase the attack stats of a unit to make it stronger against some other units without making it stronger against all other units too,
or decreasing the armor of the target unit without making it equally weaker for all other units too.
So adding a bonus like1.25x or 1.5x for a specific unit will be inevitable if we want to implement a specific spear cavalry counter versus other cavalry.
It will be necessary to speak with @scythetwirler and @fatherbushido as they might have an opinion on hardcounters.
If you want to add such a bonus to spear cavalry, you can copy the <Bonuses> seen above in the champion_infantry_spearman.xml file.
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Spearmans 50vs50 Swordmans, remains 8 - 10 Swordmans. But if u try Spearmans(50) + slings(30) vs Swordmans(50) + slings(30), you will see that Spearmans + slings win with a good advantage(because spearmans can tank more slings damage than swordmans).
You pleased me ;-) That kind of things are often missed by people. And we can extend many of those tests. (That's why I am bit upset by one case tests). That's also a sign that things works (making things a bit less predictable, more real life feeling). (lazy to describe that, but in fact create some kind of physic - not the one we know - with parameters which leads to thing less complex - more alive - than a graph with all units and the 'is better than' link).
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Thanks for testing the patch providing more test reults.
Spear cavalry definitely needs a Cavalry "soft counter" bonus. 1.25x is really good and will create a nice compromise between Cavalry picks.
As compromise, decreasing spear cavalry walk Speed in Advance of a slightly walk Speed increase for Sword Cavalry will make anche interesting game dynamic and will depower early spear cavalry Rush by moving their role as fighters bit laterali in the game.
The bonus and moviment Speed changes are planned for a different differenti because it treats a wider topic and modifies.
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I understand that we should go slow in this, but is something necessary to the game.
In the current gameplay there is no decision making enters the units. Basically what is done now is to get your best unit and do them as much as possible until you reach the final pop.
In a21 is basically spam slings in all games. Ok in a22 they were nerfed, but the players found another "op" unit and so used the same strategy, make them as much as possible in less time.
What I like to see are decision-making, I want to see a player having to use at least 3 types of units at the same time. Ex: player 1: horses, pikemans and archers, player 2: archers and horses. Player 2 would be massacred by not having how to beat the enemy horses. I would like you to understand this micro need in any strategy game, as we see in aoe2 or sc2.
Look at the success game aoe2, you are more than 15 years alive, due only to your gameplay, now look at your ancestor aoe1, look at your multiplayer games, it's 99% of the games are chariots archers in all games, no has dynamically, did not make 1% success of his successor. The same is true with sc1-2, the game is an icone rts because of its incredible and difficult dynamics, where you need to use all kinds of units to beat your enemy, I think we should mirror the gameplay of 0a.d in these incredibly successful games.
For this we need a counter system, which can be seen even in the simplest and oldest rts, is something simple and in dire need. While we do not have this system, the game is based on spamming maximum possible of the unit more "op".
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I said you pleased me :-)
In a21 is basically spam slings in all games. Ok in a22 they were nerfed, but the players found another "op" unit and so used the same strategy, make them as much as possible in less time.
Yes, you play from a long time enough to know those things.
What I like to see are decision-making, I want to see a player having to use at least 3 types of units at the same time.
sure, and it's not only about mixing units but also moving to costly, which make you late but powerfull units and also about...
In a21 is basically spam slings in all games. Ok in a22 they were nerfed, but the players found another "op" unit and so used the same strategy, make them as much as possible in less time.
What I like to see are decision-making, I want to see a player having to use at least 3 types of units at the same time. Ex: player 1: horses, pikemans and archers, player 2: archers and horses. Player 2 would be massacred by not having how to beat the enemy horses. I would like you to understand this micro need in any strategy game, as we see in aoe2 or sc2.
Look at the success game aoe2, you are more than 15 years alive, due only to your gameplay, now look at your ancestor aoe1, look at your multiplayer games, it's 99% of the games are chariots archers in all games, no has dynamically, did not make 1% success of his successor.
I don't get the comment :)
The same is true with sc1-2, the game is an icone rts because of its incredible and difficult dynamics, where you need to use all kinds of units to beat your enemy, I think we should mirror the gameplay of 0a.d in these incredibly successful games.
For this we need a counter system, which can be seen even in the simplest and oldest rts, is something simple and in dire need. While we do not have this system, the game is based on spamming maximum possible of the unit more "op".
Counter system is something complex. There is many ways to consider it (hard counters, using damages, using stats, using abilities of unit to do something another can't...). When you have two compartiments with a hole between them and one is full of gaz, after a certain time, there is the same amount of gaz in both compartiment. You can write a law saying: "half of the gaz move in the other compartiment then prevent that half part to go in the other one". You can also do in another way.
EDIT: I am really interested in those questions, we should take care to not have too many of these discussions here (more suitable in the forum for example). Thanks for your input, in fact we only agree.
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Multiple tests with 30 and 50 infantry champions, later some citizens added
Another citizens infantry mix as I couldn't believe it
with rP19383.
I could reproduce borg-'s and Grugnas observations.
Infantry:
In sole sword infantry champion versus spear infantry champion combat, the swordsmen always win with about 10 swordsmen remaining (when starting with 30 or 50 champions).
Once citizen soliders are added, the spearmen will always win, even with 20 remaining.
Multiple tests with 30 and 50 infantry champions, later some citizens added
Another citizens infantry mix as I couldn't believe it
with rP19383.
Also the angle of reducing attack speed seems to be a nice one instead of reducing the attack strength (it takes some time to wield that spear)
I heard from Grugnas and borg- that the spear cavalry change is not sufficient. After some testing I could find that spear cavalry champions always lose when testing them in direct combat and when mixing in the same amount of skirmishers:
Spearmen are the defacto counter against other cavalry, so I adding a hardcounter bonus seems both good from the gameplay point of view as well as with military authenticity.
Grugnas tested with an 1,25x bonus but it wasn't sufficient. Notice that spear infantry has a 3x bonus, so picking a number above 1,25x wouldn't be far out.
A hardcounter one way to make it stronger against one unit but not stronger against all other units, but it will be hard to find alternatives when comparing them to other melee cavalry and not making them stronger against defensive structures.
The infantry part should be committed as is, the cavalry part still needs some kind of slight buff IMO. Perhaps you guys could test with a 1,5x or 2x bonus if there is no opposition from the team otherwise.
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Thanks for testing, I guess that the reason why the champion spearmen + citizen soldier skirmishers army wins is because theXp cs skirmishers gain is related to the amount of relative damage they do. The time required to kill a champion swordman is lower than the time required to kill a champion spearman, and they will get promotion faster.