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Anatolian → Lydian; correct Persian specific names
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Authored by Nescio on Thu, May 30, 12:01 PM.

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Stan
Summary

This patch corrects the specific names of several Persian units and the generic name of pers_infantry_javelinist_b.xml.
Specific name changes (used this):

  • kh → x (this is the sound of Scottish loch or German ach)
  • sh → š (s as in sea and š=ś=ş=ʃ=sh as in ship are two different sounds)
  • indicate vowel length (ā as opposed to a)
  • adjective after noun
  • pers_infantry_archer_b.xml: Vaçabara “shield-bearer” → Thanuvaniya “archer” and SugdaSuguda “Sogdian”(see DD and here)
  • pers_infantry_javelinist_b.xml: Takabara “petasos-bearing” → Pastish “footman” (the former is an adjective applied to Macedonians and Greeks; a petasos is the broad hat they wore)
  • pers_temple.xml Āyadana is neuter, therefore nominative ends in -m
  • corrects hero names in pers.json civ file

Related corrections:

Furthermore, changes the generic name of pers_infantry_javelinist_b.xml from “Anatolian Auxiliary” to “Lydian Auxiliary”.
“Anatolian” is a modern ethno-linguistic term to refer to a specific branch of Indo-European, which includes Hittite, Luwian, Lycian, Lydian; there was not yet such a concept as Anatolian in Antiquity. (Besides, we don't call the English “Germanics” because their language belongs to the Germanic branch of Indo-European.)
The specific name “Spardiya” makes it clear the unit is, in fact, a Lydian (Sparda is the Persian name for what the Greeks—and as consequence the Romans and thus Europeans in late centuries and we in the present day—called Lydia).
By replacing Anatolian with Lydian, an anachronism is removed from 0 A.D.

Test Plan

Check for mistakes.

Diff Detail

Repository
rP 0 A.D. Public Repository
Branch
/ps/trunk
Lint
Lint OK
Unit
No Unit Test Coverage
Build Status
Buildable 7729
Build 12590: Vulcan BuildJenkins
Build 12589: arc lint + arc unit

Event Timeline

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Build failure - The Moirai have given mortals hearts that can endure.

Link to build: https://jenkins.wildfiregames.com/job/differential/1545/display/redirect

Stan added a subscriber: Stan.EditedThu, May 30, 12:08 PM

Isn't Lydian also the name of the language they spoke ? Also maybe Persian Javelinist is better for the generic name ?

Yes, Lydian is the language of the Lydians, just like English is the language of the English—but we don't call the English “Germanics” because their language belongs to the Germanic branch of Indo-European. For units, the generic names are typically translations of the specific names; translating Spardiya “Lydian” with “Anatolian” is simply wrong.
And no, “Persian” is certainly not better. Both the Persians and the Greeks differentiated between the various ethinicities in the Achaemenid empire—as do we in 0 A.D.:

  • pers_cavalry_archer_b.xml: Babiruviya Ratha (Babylonian Scythed Chariot)
  • pers_cavalry_javelinist_b.xml: Mada Asabara (Median Light Cavalry)
  • pers_cavalry_spearman_b.xml: Katpaduka Asabara (Cappadocian Cavalry)
  • pers_cavalry_swordsman_b.xml: Varkaniya Asabara (Hyrcanian Cavalry)
  • pers_champion_cavalry.xml: Bakhtrish Asabara (Bactrian Lancer)
  • pers_infantry_archer_b.xml: Sugda Vaçabara (Sogdian Archer)
Stan added a comment.Thu, May 30, 12:28 PM

I see, btw is Takabara the word for Auxiliary ?

Good question! I knew asabara means “horseman” and ratha “chariot” and thus assumed the other phrases were also proper. But I looked it up (in here); apparently takabara means “petasos-bearing” (a petasos is the wide hat worn by Greeks). The archer's specific name seems wrong too: vaçabara means “shield-bearer”; θanuvaniya is “bowman”/archer.

Stan added a comment.Thu, May 30, 12:51 PM
In D1935#80019, @Nescio wrote:

Good question! I knew asabara means “horseman” and ratha “chariot” and thus assumed the other phrases were also proper. But I looked it up (in here); apparently takabara means “petasos-bearing” (a petasos is the wide hat worn by Greeks). The archer's specific name seems wrong too: vaçabara means “shield-bearer”; θanuvaniya is “bowman”/archer.

We might want to change it then no ?

Interestingly, the names appear to be correct in https://trac.wildfiregames.com/wiki/Civ%3A_Persians:

  • Sardian Auxiliary Spardiya Takabara
  • Sogdian Archer Suguda Thanuvaniya
Stan added a comment.Thu, May 30, 12:54 PM

Might want to see when that was broken.

Might want to see when that was broken.

rP10387 (javelinist) and rP13625 (archer).

Nescio updated this revision to Diff 8213.Thu, May 30, 1:04 PM
Nescio edited the summary of this revision. (Show Details)
Stan added a comment.Thu, May 30, 1:06 PM

Wasn't correct in the first place either. Usually we should refer to the design docs are they should hold the truth. At least that's what was said here: https://trac.wildfiregames.com/wiki/ArtDesignDocument

"History and its usage in the game are paramount. When in doubt ask a WFG historian."

I'm not sure how to proceed here. The generic name can't possibly be Lydian petasos-bearing unit and it doesn't have to. Had we got a WW1 mod I guess the generic name would be Rifleman (Tireur) and the specific name could be 'Poilu'
though when writing that it doesn't seem that nice either.

Stan added a comment.Thu, May 30, 1:07 PM

Why not Sardian Auxiliary ?

Perhaps we should also replace takabara with pasti(sh) “foot-soldier”, because the petasos was characteristic of Greeks, not Lydians.

Stan added a comment.Thu, May 30, 1:16 PM
In D1935#80039, @Nescio wrote:

Perhaps we should also replace takabara with pasti(sh) “foot-soldier”, because the petasos was characteristic of Greeks, not Lydians.

No word like peltast ?

As for Sardian, Sardes was the capital city of Lydia; in English it's common to refer to the Lydians as Lydians, not Sardians, though.

Build failure - The Moirai have given mortals hearts that can endure.

Link to build: https://jenkins.wildfiregames.com/job/differential/1547/display/redirect

Stan added a comment.Thu, May 30, 1:20 PM
In D1935#80041, @Nescio wrote:

As for Sardian, Sardes was the capital city of Lydia; in English it's common to refer to the Lydians as Lydians, not Sardians, though.

Yes it makes sense, unless they were city states like greece.

Yes it makes sense, unless they were city states like greece.

No, the Persian Empire was organized in about two dozen satrapies, which correspond to kingdoms or peoples conquered by the Persians, e.g. Egypt (Mudrâya); Sparda corresponds to the kingdom of Lydia (conquered c. 546 BC), which reportedly extended from the Aegean to the Halys.
Had the Persian wars been successful, then all of Greece would have been united as a single satrapy; but because the Persian army was defeated, those poor Greeks had to wait for the Romans.

No word like peltast ?

A πέλτη is a small, rimless shield; I don't think vaçabara “shield-bearer” is what you want. And no, I couldn't find a Persian word for javelin.

Stan added a reviewer: Stan.Thu, May 30, 2:10 PM
In D1935#80047, @Nescio wrote:

A πέλτη is a small, rimless shield; I don't think vaçabara “shield-bearer” is what you want. And no, I couldn't find a Persian word for javelin.

Ah, too bad, I guess like peltasts their specific names could be because of their props then.

Was that unit really specific to that city, or could it be Lydian in the specific name as well ?

Sparda is the Persian name for the whole region; the Greek and English equivalent is Lydia (although Lydia proper is smaller than the kingdom/satrapy of Lydia); similarily, Bābiruviya “Babylonian” isn't exclusively reserved for the city itself (Babylon/Babel), it can apply to anyone from Babylonia (the region/Chaldean kingdom/Persian satrapy/Roman province).

The πέλτη was typical for the peoples of the southern Balkans (Illyrians, Macedonians, Thracians), who fought primarily with javelins; they were also recruited in large numbers as mercenaries in Classical Greece. Depending on the context, peltast can mean javelin-man, Thracian, mercenary, pikeman, hypaspist, etc. Although sometimes peltast is a javelinist, not all javelinists are peltasts, and not all peltasts are javelinists. Anyway, that's outside the scope of this patch.

So what shall we do with pers_infantry_javelinist_b.xml? Change to Spardiya Pastish “Lydian Auxiliary”? (For comparison, all Persian cavalry is called simply arsabara “horseman”.)

Stan added a comment.Thu, May 30, 3:01 PM

Interesting it seems @Spahbod spotted the broken translation for the archer https://wildfiregames.com/forum/index.php?/topic/14918-wrong-persian-tranlations/&tab=comments#comment-221930

They javelinist are carrying shields, so they could be shield bearers maybe, the design doc would likely need to be updated with @Itms's permission afterwards.

Other units have shields too, and pers_infantry_spearman_b.xml is called Sparabara “Shield Bearer”.
There is a word ạrštika “spearman”; pers_arstibara.xml (introduced in rP10912; not in design document) is called Arštibara “Persian Apple Bearer”, which also seems wrong: an apple is not a spear.
Also, I'm not sure whether we should write š or sh; x or kh; and c or ç; both options seem to be in use.
The more I look, the more things I see.

Stan added a comment.Thu, May 30, 3:41 PM

I believe apple is related to whatever they were garding no ?

Yes, apple-bearer may be the correct term for that unit, however, it is not a translation of the specific name: aršti- is a spear, not an apple.

Stan added a comment.Thu, May 30, 3:47 PM

Ah I thought Arsti = apple. But it's still a spearman right ?

Stan added a comment.Thu, May 30, 3:48 PM

Actually, that's one of the issues I have with the generic name. How specific should it be. Javelinist could all have Javelinist as generic name, and their specific name reflect that they were apple bearers or whatever. I don't think the generic name should be a simple translation of the specific one.

Well, I always assumed the generic name ought to be the English equivalent of the specific name; e.g. pers_champion_infantry.xml Anusiya “Persian Immortal”: anušiya- means “a loyal follower”, i.e. companion, which was how the Persian inscriptions refer to them; Herodotus calls them ἀθάνατοι “immortals” and that's ended up as the most common name for them in English.
Likewise, I don't have any objections to translating asabara in one template as “light cavalry” and in another as “heavy lancer”.

However, takabara is problematic, because the Yauna- Ionians/Greeks wore the petasos, but not the Spardiya- Lydians.
Actors are correct (left Athenian archer with petasos, right Persian javelinist without):

Stan added a comment.Fri, May 31, 1:05 AM

I would go for Pastish then. With maybe the proper accents etc .

Nescio updated this revision to Diff 8231.Fri, May 31, 10:36 AM
Nescio retitled this revision from Anatolian → Lydian to Anatolian → Lydian; correct Persian specific names.
Nescio edited the summary of this revision. (Show Details)
Nescio edited the test plan for this revision. (Show Details)

Successful build - Chance fights ever on the side of the prudent.

Link to build: https://jenkins.wildfiregames.com/job/differential/1557/display/redirect

Stan added a comment.EditedFri, May 31, 10:56 AM

Anything wrong with the 'š' (I don't even know how it's called).

No, there is nothing wrong with š itself (in fact, I would prefer it), however, it apparently leads to confusion, because some files have š, more sh (e.g. Kurush Cyrus), and others s (which is wrong). Because English has sh but not š, I standardized it.

Stan added a comment.Fri, May 31, 11:08 AM

If we follow Anaxandridas (I had to google his name to spell it lol)'s suggestions, won't we be using accents for greek as well ? How do those accents display in game ?

Nescio added a comment.EditedFri, May 31, 11:23 AM

Not all diacritics are accents :) And yes, we already use accents for Greek (e.g. mace_civil_centre.xml has “Agorá”); furthermore, the game has no problem with displaying polytonic Greek either:


But that's not the point. The game can handle š, no problem; however, not all people can, apparently; currently š is written in three different ways in the templates, which can only lead to confusion, therefore I was bold and standardized it. The advantage of sh is that people won't think that the caron/haček is merely an accent and can thus be omitted, which is not true: š (𐏁) is not s (𐎿).
[EDIT]: Same problem for Ashoka/Aśoka/Asoka.

Stan added a comment.Fri, May 31, 11:49 AM

Maybe there should be something here about specific names here https://trac.wildfiregames.com/wiki/EnglishStyleGuide

No information there either https://trac.wildfiregames.com/wiki/Unit_Summary_Table

It seems the game was alwas designed with specific name in mind, there is no specific commit for them, they were added as part of the Identity component from nearly the beginning.

binaries/data/mods/public/simulation/templates/units/pers_support_healer_b.xml
8

Isn't the order reversed here ?

The specific names are specifically non-English, so I'm not sure that style guide would be the appropiate place. I vaguely recall @Itms stating he wanted to write a page on transliterations months ago, but undoubtedly he's busy with other things.

As for š vs sh, both are correct; š is more common in literature, sh is perhaps safer; I have no preference here, as long as it's done consistently.

binaries/data/mods/public/simulation/templates/units/pers_support_healer_b.xml
8

Not sure it really matters (“Median magus” or “magian Mede”?), but I suppose I could change it for consistency. On the other hand, in the few inscriptions I had a look at, it seems the adjective is placed after the noun, so perhaps we should keep this but change the others.

Itms added a comment.Fri, May 31, 12:29 PM
In D1935#80241, @Nescio wrote:

The specific names are specifically non-English, so I'm not sure that style guide would be the appropiate place. I vaguely recall @Itms stating he wanted to write a page on transliterations months ago, but undoubtedly he's busy with other things.

Yes I am, very unfortunately. If you want to create such a page please go ahead, I'd be very happy that we have one even incomplete. I'll contribute to it if needed, for the languages I have knowledge about (Latin, Greek and Sanskrit). For Persian I'm following the discussion here with interest but I don't know enough.

Stan added a comment.Fri, May 31, 12:32 PM

@Itms are there any rules about the usage of diacritics and whether the generic name should just be a mere translation of the specific name or if it should be really generic like spearman javelinist swordsman etc.

Do you want to have vowel length indicated, e.g. Latin hastātus? And for Sanskrit, do you want to use ś or sh?

Itms added a comment.Fri, May 31, 12:47 PM

There are no rules yet. For Latin I find the diacritics for vowels pretty, and since it's a transliteration I guess we should put them. For Sanskrit I am used to ś, sh doesn't bother me though.

Then let's use š in Old Persian.
Also, could you create a page https://trac.wildfiregames.com/wiki/SpecificNames, so I could write down a few things there?

Itms added a comment.Fri, May 31, 1:17 PM
In D1935#80249, @Nescio wrote:

Then let's use š in Old Persian.
Also, could you create a page https://trac.wildfiregames.com/wiki/SpecificNames, so I could write down a few things there?

Done!

Nescio updated this revision to Diff 8235.Fri, May 31, 1:40 PM
Nescio edited the summary of this revision. (Show Details)

Updated, now indicating vowel length and using š.

Successful build - Chance fights ever on the side of the prudent.

Link to build: https://jenkins.wildfiregames.com/job/differential/1560/display/redirect

Stan added inline comments.Fri, May 31, 2:23 PM
binaries/data/mods/public/simulation/templates/structures/pers_elephant_stables.xml
5

No word for elephant and stable ?

Put some information at https://trac.wildfiregames.com/wiki/SpecificNames (can be changed later).

binaries/data/mods/public/simulation/templates/structures/pers_elephant_stables.xml
5

Not that I know of; I'm not even sure the strings currently used by pers_stable.xml and pers_champion_elephant.xml are correct.
Anyway, “Persian Elephant Stables” is clearly not Old Persian, so I think it's better to delete it, until someone else can find a proper phrase.

Stan added inline comments.Fri, May 31, 3:30 PM
binaries/data/mods/public/simulation/templates/structures/pers_hall.xml
29

Is that the real translation ? Because the next persian wonder should be the gate of all nations.

Nescio added inline comments.Fri, May 31, 3:44 PM
binaries/data/mods/public/simulation/templates/structures/pers_hall.xml
29

Yes, it is, literally: duvarθi- means “gate, portal” and visa-dahạyu- “of all nations”.
The actor also seems to somewhat match (square, single room, large gates) the description give at https://oi.uchicago.edu/collections/photographic-archives/persepolis/gate-xerxes

Stan added inline comments.Fri, May 31, 4:53 PM
binaries/data/mods/public/simulation/templates/structures/pers_hall.xml
29

Interesting. The building doesn't seem to have any usage in vanilla although the tool-tip suggests one should be able to train elephants in that building.

Looking at this thread it would seem that the new building would just be an improvement over the old one, though it would be a bigger with an extended courtyard.

Nescio updated this revision to Diff 8266.Sat, Jun 1, 9:51 AM
Nescio edited the summary of this revision. (Show Details)

Also updates the hero specific names and descriptions in the pers.json civ file.

Vulcan added a comment.Sat, Jun 1, 9:52 AM

Successful build - Chance fights ever on the side of the prudent.

Link to build: https://jenkins.wildfiregames.com/job/differential/1574/display/redirect

Nescio updated this revision to Diff 8270.Sat, Jun 1, 10:15 AM

Atossa, Hystaspes.

Successful build - Chance fights ever on the side of the prudent.

Link to build: https://jenkins.wildfiregames.com/job/differential/1576/display/redirect

Stan added inline comments.Sat, Jun 1, 3:38 PM
binaries/data/mods/public/simulation/data/civs/pers.json
58

Why remove the I here and add it below ?

Nescio added inline comments.Sat, Jun 1, 5:31 PM
binaries/data/mods/public/simulation/data/civs/pers.json
58

What do you mean exactly? My understanding is that the Name field is the specific name (i.e. Old Persian), whereas everywhere else the common name (i.e. English) should be used. Of course, I can be mistaken.

Stan added inline comments.Sat, Jun 1, 5:46 PM
binaries/data/mods/public/simulation/data/civs/pers.json
58

Well in this case it is fine because we do not have II III and IV but if you do that for the ptolemies it will be harder to differentiate them.

Nescio added inline comments.Sat, Jun 1, 6:02 PM
binaries/data/mods/public/simulation/data/civs/pers.json
58

Oh, you meant regnal numbers.
Actually ptol.json has the following:

"Name": "Ptolemaios A' Soter",
"Name": "Ptolemaios D' Philopater",
"Name": "Kleopatra H' Philopater",

and sele.json has:

"Name": "Seleukos A' Nikator",
"Name": "Antiokhos G' Megas",
"Name": "Antiokhos D' Epiphanes",
Stan added a comment.Wed, Jun 5, 10:17 PM

Is it common to reference numbers as letters ?

You mean the use of letter signs for numbers? That's actually quite common. Keep in mind the “Arabic” numerals reached Europe only in Medieval times.
You're probably familiar with the Roman numerals (I=1, V=5, X=10, L=50, C=100, D=500, M=1000).
A similar system, the so-called “Attic” numerals, existed in the Greek world (Ι=1, 𐅃=5, Δ=10, 𐅄=50, Η=100, 𐅅=500, Χ=1000, 𐅆=5000, Μ=10000, 𐅇=50000).
In manuscripts, however, the newer Ionian system from Milete was used (Αʹ=1, Βʹ=2, Γʹ=3, ... , Ιʹ=10, Κʹ=20, Λʹ=30, ... , Ρʹ=100, Σʹ=200, Τʹ=300, etc.).

Stan added a comment.Mon, Jun 10, 12:23 PM

Sorry, I didn't get a notification for your answer somehow. I'm still a bit concerned about the diacritics. I personally like them but I can see how it could confuse some people, and I want the game to be an enjoyable experience for everyone.

Also I like consistency, and if we are not going to use diacritics for the greek, then we might not use it for the persians either.

binaries/data/mods/public/simulation/data/civs/pers.json
58

Maybe we should add the letters for consistency then. And then decide for the next person who will ask the question.

Yes, I highly value consistency as well, no disagreement here. However, I'm unsure what you meant with your last remark. Currently diacritics are used in at least some of the specific names of cart, kush, maur, pers, and rome, as well as in those of the Greek factions (athen, mace, ptol, sele, spart).
Anyway, let's limit this patch to the Persians only—it's already expanded far beyond the first diff (changing one of occurrence of Anatolian into Lydian).

binaries/data/mods/public/simulation/data/civs/pers.json
58

Again, I'm assuming we use the native language for the specific name and the common, English name everywhere else.
As you can see regnal numbers are used in the "History" paragraph, because that's a modern convention, but not in the (specific) "Name", because Persian sources don't use regnal numbers, so inserting them feels artificial.

Stan added a comment.Mon, Jun 10, 7:34 PM

I meant using simple diacritics :) éèëê and leaving out the rest not to confuse people.

Arbitrarily including some diacritics and omitting others would probably make things more confusing, don't you think? Besides, a single symbol can have different meanings in different languages—those four you call “simple” are already used differently in modern European languages, e.g. French cité is equivalent to Italian città.
In Old Persian, accents were not written, so we don't have to worry about those. However, vowel length is indicated and should thus be properly transcribed.

The question is whether the "Name": field in the {civ}.json files should equal the generic name or the specific name. Looking at all those files, it seems currently:

  • athen, cart, gaul, kush, mace, spart use English common names
  • brit, pers, ptol, sele use native language
  • iber, rome could be both
  • maur uses English "Ashoka the Great" for one but Sanskrit "Acharya Chāṇakya" for another

Maybe it should be standardized in a future patch; this one simply sticks to maintaining the status quo.