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correct Roman specific names
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Authored by Nescio on Jun 18 2019, 8:13 AM.

Details

Summary

This patch:

  • vowel length for consistency
  • remove useless tooltip from rome_arch.xml
  • add specific names to arch, stable, small tower, workshop
  • correct specific names for army camp, corral (because plural in Classical Latin), large tower, siege wallset
  • replace technically correct aedes Martis/Vestae (literally temple of Mars/Vesta; genitive) with aedes Martialis/Vestalis (temple dedicated to Mars/Vesta; adjective), because of flamen Martialis and virgo Vestalis
  • removed unnecessary adjectives from centurio, healer, legionary, trader
  • expanded hero names, because there tend to be more than one Roman with the same name
Test Plan

Check for inconsistencies.

Diff Detail

Repository
rP 0 A.D. Public Repository
Lint
Automatic diff as part of commit; lint not applicable.
Unit
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Event Timeline

Nescio created this revision.Jun 18 2019, 8:13 AM
Stan added inline comments.Jun 18 2019, 8:40 AM
binaries/data/mods/public/simulation/templates/units/rome_support_healer_b.xml
8 ↗(On Diff #8542)

Implicit also ?

binaries/data/mods/public/simulation/templates/units/rome_support_trader.xml
11 ↗(On Diff #8542)

I assume that's implicit ?

Successful build - Chance fights ever on the side of the prudent.

Link to build: https://jenkins.wildfiregames.com/job/differential/1766/display/redirect

Nescio added inline comments.Jun 18 2019, 12:36 PM
binaries/data/mods/public/simulation/templates/units/rome_support_healer_b.xml
8 ↗(On Diff #8542)

Yes: pontifex means “priest”, specifically a member of the collēgium pontificium, which was headed by the pontifex maximus. The Augustan term pontifex minor appears to be equivalent to the Republican scrība pontificius.
Sulla reportedly increased the number of pontificēs, implying there were fewer before then, which makes me wonder if we shouldn't use the word sacerdōs “priest(ess)” instead.
Or even better, switch to medīcus “doctor”; for comparison athen and spart have iatrós “surgeon”.

binaries/data/mods/public/simulation/templates/units/rome_support_trader.xml
11 ↗(On Diff #8542)

Yes: traditionally Roman society was divided into patricians (who could trace their fathers back to the leading families of the Roman kingdom) and the plebeians (everyone else).
Commerce was frowned upon by the Roman upper-class (who were typically wealthy land-owners), who considered trading and making profits as something dirty, similar to prostitution. Therefore merchants were typically plebeians, freedmen, or foreigners.

Itms requested changes to this revision.Aug 5 2019, 6:08 PM

Thanks for the work! I went through my own dictionary for these changes (Latin-French by Gaffiot & Flobert, 2001) and I have a few differences. A lot of them are vowel lengths differing. Note that sometimes, my dictionary only says that the vowel is not always long, not that it is always short.

Can you double check and then we sort it out?

binaries/data/mods/public/simulation/templates/structures/rome_corral.xml
8 ↗(On Diff #8542)

My dictionary defines saepta as a voting enclosure, so not for animals. Saeptum is correct according to it.

binaries/data/mods/public/simulation/templates/structures/rome_farmstead.xml
8 ↗(On Diff #8542)

I have villa, or alternatively vīla, but not vīlla.

binaries/data/mods/public/simulation/templates/structures/rome_sentry_tower.xml
5 ↗(On Diff #8542)

I have lignea.

binaries/data/mods/public/simulation/templates/structures/rome_temple_mars.xml
13 ↗(On Diff #8542)

I have Martiālis.

binaries/data/mods/public/simulation/templates/units/rome_centurio_imperial.xml
17 ↗(On Diff #8542)

Centuriō is the verb (to form a century), whereas I have centurio for the centurion.

binaries/data/mods/public/simulation/templates/units/rome_champion_cavalry.xml
6 ↗(On Diff #8542)

I have consulāris.

binaries/data/mods/public/simulation/templates/units/rome_champion_infantry.xml
7 ↗(On Diff #8542)

I have extraordinārius.

binaries/data/mods/public/simulation/templates/units/rome_infantry_swordsman_b.xml
16 ↗(On Diff #8542)

It is a javelinist in my dictionary, not a swordsman.

binaries/data/mods/public/simulation/templates/units/rome_ship_merchant.xml
9 ↗(On Diff #8542)

I think the corbita is a military ship... I'm not sure as my dictionary definition is ambiguous... But I could find an occurrence of the word in a text and it seems military.

binaries/data/mods/public/simulation/templates/units/rome_ship_quinquereme.xml
5 ↗(On Diff #8542)

I have quinquerēmis.

binaries/data/mods/public/simulation/templates/units/rome_siege_scorpio_packed.xml
18 ↗(On Diff #8542)

I have scorpio, the o becoming long only in the declension, when the stem becomes scorpiōn-

This revision now requires changes to proceed.Aug 5 2019, 6:08 PM
Nescio added a comment.Aug 5 2019, 8:55 PM

Thanks for checking, I appreciate it!
When writing this patch I used the concise dictionary of H. Pinkster (2nd edition; Amsterdam 2003); for your feedback I also consulted the larger dictionary of P.G.W. Glare (2nd edition; Oxford 2012). Let's see if we can find some common ground.

As you wrote yourself, different dictionaries have different policies of indicating vowel length. Here's also a page from the introduction of the OLD; read the first paragraph:


In other words, not all long vowels are indicated as such; conservative dictionaries tend to only indicate a long vowel if it could otherwise be mistakenly pronounced short. E.g. Glare writes consānescō and Pinkster cōnsānēscō.
This also explains vīlla, līgnea, Mārtiālis, cōnsulāris, extrāōrdinārius, quīnquerēmis. I'm inclined to follow Pinkster and write long as long.

binaries/data/mods/public/simulation/templates/structures/rome_corral.xml
8 ↗(On Diff #8542)

Yes, saeptum means fence, enclosure, pen, etc.; however, only the plural saepta is attested in classical authors, which is why I decided to change it.

Basically, the singular is correct, but the plural might be better.
I don't feel strongly about it, so I'll leave this one up to you.

binaries/data/mods/public/simulation/templates/structures/rome_farmstead.xml
8 ↗(On Diff #8542)

See above.

binaries/data/mods/public/simulation/templates/structures/rome_sentry_tower.xml
5 ↗(On Diff #8542)

See above.

binaries/data/mods/public/simulation/templates/structures/rome_temple_mars.xml
13 ↗(On Diff #8542)

See above.

binaries/data/mods/public/simulation/templates/units/rome_centurio_imperial.xml
17 ↗(On Diff #8542)

Both Pinkster and Glare have a nominative ending in long -ō:

binaries/data/mods/public/simulation/templates/units/rome_champion_cavalry.xml
6 ↗(On Diff #8542)

See above.

binaries/data/mods/public/simulation/templates/units/rome_champion_infantry.xml
7 ↗(On Diff #8542)

See above.

binaries/data/mods/public/simulation/templates/units/rome_infantry_swordsman_b.xml
16 ↗(On Diff #8542)

Originally the Romans fought primarily with spears, as did the Etruscans, Greeks, and other Italic peoples. However, in the early Republic the Romans et al. dropped the hasta “spear” and adopted the gladius “sword” as their primary weapon, but the name stuck.
Roman legions were organized in three, the hastati in front, the principes in the middle, the triarii in the back.
In dictionary under 2. (pagebreak):

Polybius VI.23 describes it in detail: http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Polybius/6*.html#23 (hence the term “Polybian army”).

binaries/data/mods/public/simulation/templates/units/rome_ship_merchant.xml
9 ↗(On Diff #8542)

Then your dictionary is wrong.
Both Pinkster and Glare have “cargo ship”:


Furthermore, L. Casson Ships and Seamanship in the Ancient World (Princeton 1971) describes it as a rounded, basket-shaped freighter too:

Warships are typically long and narrow (hence nāvis longa “warship”—and later the Viking longship).

binaries/data/mods/public/simulation/templates/units/rome_ship_quinquereme.xml
5 ↗(On Diff #8542)

See above.

binaries/data/mods/public/simulation/templates/units/rome_siege_scorpio_packed.xml
18 ↗(On Diff #8542)

Both Pinkster and Glare have a nominative ending in long -ō:

Itms added a comment.Aug 6 2019, 3:04 PM

Thanks for the answers! Indeed my dictionary must be marking only the vowels where confusion can happen. I still have one word where I do have a short vowel.

binaries/data/mods/public/simulation/templates/structures/rome_corral.xml
8 ↗(On Diff #8542)

I'd favor saeptum since your dictionary also puts the voting enclosure under the pl. entry.

binaries/data/mods/public/simulation/templates/units/rome_champion_infantry.xml
7 ↗(On Diff #8542)
binaries/data/mods/public/simulation/templates/units/rome_infantry_swordsman_b.xml
16 ↗(On Diff #8542)

Nice!

binaries/data/mods/public/simulation/templates/units/rome_ship_merchant.xml
9 ↗(On Diff #8542)

Thanks, my dictionary uses an ambiguous translation "navire de charge" which can mean "ramming ship" or "cargo ship", as "charge" has several meanings... The occurrences your dictionary provides lift my doubts.

Nescio added a comment.Aug 6 2019, 7:35 PM

Roughly speaking, in Latin (and Greek) prosody a syllable scans as long if it is:

  1. a short vowel followed by two or more consonants
  2. a long vowel followed by two or more consonants
  3. a long vowel
  4. a diphthong (ae, oe)

(There are a few subtleties but you get the idea.)
Now Pinkster indicates vowel length for both 2 and 3, Glare (and other dictionaries) only in case of 3.

binaries/data/mods/public/simulation/templates/structures/rome_corral.xml
8 ↗(On Diff #8542)

Let's keep singular saeptum then.

binaries/data/mods/public/simulation/templates/units/rome_champion_infantry.xml
7 ↗(On Diff #8542)

Now this is interesting, our dictionaries disagree!
Pinkster writes it explicitly with ā, Glare states it is formed from [extrā + ōrdō + -ārivs], but Gaffiot writes ă.
All three agree the a is long in extrā and in compounds such as extrāclūsus. Now the question is why Gaffiot believes the a must be short in this case. Perhaps it is a mistake, but I suspect he thinks the long a becomes short because it is directly followed by a long vowel.
Now, do we follow Pinkster or Gaffiot here? Usually dictionaries are in agreement, but when not, there is still one more option available: consult the Thesaurus Linguae Latinae.
You can find the relevant file at publikationen.badw.de/de/000924309{ThLL vol. 05.2 col. 1823–2134 (exquisitim–eozani)}[CC BY-NC-ND].pdf; extraordinarius starts on page 129 of that pdf.
As you can see the TLL also writes the a in extra long. Therefore we should too; ignore Gaffiot in this case.

binaries/data/mods/public/simulation/templates/units/rome_ship_merchant.xml
9 ↗(On Diff #8542)

Ah, I see, so your dictionary was actually correct.
(For what's worth it, https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Navire_de_charge )

Itms added a comment.Aug 6 2019, 7:53 PM

Alright, everything is cleared up then! Thanks again for the work :)

binaries/data/mods/public/simulation/templates/units/rome_champion_infantry.xml
7 ↗(On Diff #8542)

Let's follow the TLL then! And maybe someday I'll checkout a recent edition of the Gaffiot and verify whether they changed this.

binaries/data/mods/public/simulation/templates/units/rome_ship_merchant.xml
9 ↗(On Diff #8542)

Lol, thanks for the link! I don't know enough about ships, even when it's my mother language :)

Itms accepted this revision.Aug 6 2019, 7:53 PM
This revision is now accepted and ready to land.Aug 6 2019, 7:53 PM
This revision was automatically updated to reflect the committed changes.

Thank you for committing this! Perhaps you could also have a look at D1935?