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Remove Macedonian Fortress cost bonus
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Authored by Grugnas on Mar 9 2017, 11:01 PM.

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Summary

This patch fixes some values appeared in this review without an explicit reason despite a previous generic cost and build time balance for hellenic fortresses, resulting, so, as an inconsistance.
r14603. Commit message: Siege Workshop for the Macedonians. Needs a new model. http://trac.wildfiregames.com/changeset/14603

Test Plan

Macedonian fortress will have same values as other hellenic civs fortresses.

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Event Timeline

Grugnas created this revision.Mar 9 2017, 11:01 PM
Grugnas added a reviewer: elexis.
elexis accepted this revision.Mar 9 2017, 11:06 PM

I agree with the change, since macedonians have many advantages and since this advantage doesn't seem justified. If they pay 20% less, the fortress should at least have 20% less health.

As mentioned by Grugnas, rP14603 didn't mention a reason for this change.
Perhaps the intention of the bonus is that Macedonians were conquerors.
However in our game, fortresses are mostly used defensively. So if that theory is correct, there should be a significantly greater minimum distance between fortresses.

This revision is now accepted and ready to land.Mar 9 2017, 11:06 PM
elexis retitled this revision from Macedonian Fortress ambiguous values to Remove Macedonian Fortress cost bonus.
fatherbushido edited edge metadata.EditedMar 9 2017, 11:31 PM

The explanation I found last time I watched at it was that they can t build siege in their fortress and they must build the workshop.
(see the commit context)
So: neutral.
Edit: (kind of self balancing suggested above is also an idea)

The explanation I found last time I watched at it was that they can t build siege in their fortress and they must build the workshop.

Okay, but a siege workshop costs only 300 wood and doesn't depend on a fortress being built. Notice the bonus accumulates when building many fortresses, giving them a signficant turtle bonus which can't be what was intended.
If that thing should cost 20% less stone, it should have 20% less HP too

Grugnas added a comment.EditedMar 9 2017, 11:49 PM

The siege workshop is cheap and let macedonians train sieges very quick, so it is an advantage. Building 5 workshops would require 1500 wood and would have the same effectiveness of 5 built fortresses for other civs.

Alexander The Great built one of the largest empires of the ancient world, so that advantage could be refiled as additional aura to such hero.
Actually Alexander the great has a 10% bonus of territory influence, which isn't a substantial aura compared to other heroes, so my proposal is to merge those build time and price reduction as additional aura effect to that hero.
Alexander The Great:

Imperialism Aura: +10% territory effect to the buildings while he lives.
Conqueror: +20% Building rate and price reduction to fortresses while he lives.

It is even historically correct and would make this a valuable hero for defensive / expansive strategies.

In D203#7702, @elexis wrote:

Okay, but a siege workshop costs only 300 wood and doesn't depend on a fortress being built. Notice the bonus accumulates when building many fortresses, giving them a signficant turtle bonus which can't be what was intended.

I just give an explanation, didn t say it was good ?

If that thing should cost 20% less stone, it should have 20% less HP too

You said it, I said it, see: (kind of self balancing suggested above is also an idea)
You said it again

@Grugnas: I guess you try to expand your idea. If you try to convince me, I didn t say the converse of what you say ?

self-balancing -> didn't know what you exactly meant with that

Wouldn't mind playing with the hero auras a bit. But I'm still concerned that fortresses will rather be used to turtle up instead of using them to conquer enemy territory.
This could only be accomplished by increasing the BuildRestrictions.MinDistance between fortresses while the hero is alive (is that even possible with an aura?).
That mindistance wouldn't be applied to forts that are built previously, but those forts would also not have the stone cost advantage.

Grugnas added a comment.EditedMar 10 2017, 10:29 AM

I only thought about a solution on the run taking the opportunity for proposing this aura because someone talked about macedonian conquest power, fame the gained under Alexander The Great kingodm, which, casually, isn't the most popular macedonian hero (personally, I can't recall a situation where a 10% territory influence came in handy) despite his epithet "The Great".

I'm not against what @elexis proposed because macedonians are missing a civ bonus if compared to other hellenic civ, and, despite the different impact those bonuses have compared to the impact this macedonian fortress bonus will have on th game, there is to be considered, beyond the implementation, a description in the history page describing the name and the reason of this civ bonus, and that the actual values go against what father addresses as self-balancing.

-30% build time and -30% price gives the pride to macedonian for the fastest built fortress in the game
That fortress is even built faster than briton fortresses for a price of 1000 for briton fortress vs the 800 of the macedonian fortress (1000 for hellenic civs), a 400 build time vs the macedonian 385 (550 for hellenic civs) and something like 3360 hp vs the 4620 of the macedonian and any othter hellenic faction), so it may be a good opportunity to reformulate it.

EDIT: Consider also that other heroes grant a 15% build rate in a limited range and they may be considered "economy friendly" heroes. For having such bonus, other civ have to build a fortress or a special building first, and this approach seems kinda self-balancing.

I'm not pretending to advance a premade idea,

None said that ;-)

fatherbushido accepted this revision.Mar 10 2017, 12:14 PM
scythetwirler accepted this revision.Mar 11 2017, 3:03 AM
Closed by commit rP19284 (authored by scythetwirler). · Explain WhyMar 11 2017, 3:13 AM
This revision was automatically updated to reflect the committed changes.