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Use standarized phrasing and terminology for the Patriot aura description
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Authored by Gallaecio on Aug 25 2019, 12:17 PM.

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Summary

Changed because of a request for context on Transifex by translator warriog: https://www.transifex.com/wildfire-games/0ad/translate/#gl/$/113045047

Updated according to https://trac.wildfiregames.com/wiki/EnglishStyleGuide#Stats and https://trac.wildfiregames.com/wiki/EnglishStyleGuide#Phrasing

Note that, because “attack speed” is the opposite of “attack repeat time”, the value change (0.8) is also the opposite (1/0.8=1.25).

Test Plan

Only affects user-visible strings.

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rP 0 A.D. Public Repository
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Build 14870: Vulcan BuildJenkins

Event Timeline

Gallaecio created this revision.Aug 25 2019, 12:17 PM

Build failure - The Moirai have given mortals hearts that can endure.

Link to build: https://jenkins.wildfiregames.com/job/docker-differential/489/display/redirect

Gallaecio edited the summary of this revision. (Show Details)Aug 25 2019, 12:21 PM
elexis added a subscriber: elexis.Aug 25 2019, 12:24 PM

I know it takes some additional time, but sometimes one can learn some considerations of others that one didn't know yet when searching through the revision history (svn blame).
One can also do it in the webUI:
https://code.wildfiregames.com/source/0ad/browse/ps/trunk/binaries/data/mods/public/simulation/data/auras/units/heroes/ptol_hero_cleopatra_1.json
(It ought to display a commit ID for every line per file)

According to revision history the string was Egyptian units fight 25% faster in her vision range. before rP19052.

I don't know what to make of that though, was just curious and wanted to mention it.

Wouldn't it be better to incorporate this in D1808? Where the file is already touched.

Let's stick with "Soldiers and Siege Engines −20% melee and ranged attack repeat time." in D1808.
I remember endless and repeated discussions on Age of Kings (which used the +25% attack speed string format) forums years ago, of people who refused to believe 1/0.8=1.25 and insisted the code should be changed to 0.75 to reflect the description. Therefore let's stay as close to the actual modifications to avoid unnecessary confusion.

The according trac ticket for this was #3600 (searching for "math tooltip" on trac brought it up).

Basically, time is unambiguous, rate and speed can be confusing, apparently.

Gallaecio added a comment.EditedAug 25 2019, 12:44 PM

I assume the example I added to the English style guide, that 0.5 attack repeat time would mean (1/0.5=2) +100% attack speed, will make it more obvious that the math works: half the time = twice the speed.

If we want to keep using -20%, we need a different wording for “attack repeat time”. I was actually going to use “-20% time between attacks” until I saw “capture attack speed” recommended for Attack/Capture/RepeatTime in https://trac.wildfiregames.com/wiki/EnglishStyleGuide#Stats

Nescio added a comment.EditedAug 25 2019, 12:52 PM

Personally I don't really mind whether we use −50% or +100%, as long as it is done consistently. Perhaps a forum discussion would be helpful to find out what others think.
However, I strongly believe D1808 should be committed first; afterwards this one could change time to speed, if deemed necessary.

[EDIT]: I just did a grep, it seems this one is indeed the only data file (aura, technology, etc.) that modifies RepeatTime.

In D2226#92500, @Nescio wrote:

However, I strongly believe D1808 should be committed first; afterwards this one could change time to speed, if deemed necessary.

+1

Gallaecio retitled this revision from Use standarized phrasing and terminology for the Patriot aura description to [WIP] Use standarized phrasing and terminology for the Patriot aura description.Aug 25 2019, 12:58 PM
×0.95  (−5%) →   +5.263%
×0.9  (−10%) →  +11.111%
×0.85 (−15%) →  +17.647%
×0.8  (−20%) →  +25%
x0.75 (−25%) →  +33.333%
×0.7  (−30%) →  +42.857%
×0.6  (−40%) →  +66.667%
×0.5  (−50%) → +100%
Gallaecio retitled this revision from [WIP] Use standarized phrasing and terminology for the Patriot aura description to Use standarized phrasing and terminology for the Patriot aura description.Sep 15 2019, 1:57 PM

Successful build - Chance fights ever on the side of the prudent.

Link to build: https://jenkins.wildfiregames.com/job/docker-differential/704/display/redirect

Still, the question remains whether using “attack speed” is indeed clearer and less confusing than “attack time”. Also, how about similar stats (e.g. entities' <Cost/BuildTime>, healers' <Heal/Rate>, siege engines' <Pack/Time>, etc.)?

Successful build - Chance fights ever on the side of the prudent.

Link to build: https://jenkins.wildfiregames.com/job/vs2015-differential/188/display/redirect

Vulcan added a comment.Nov 2 2019, 7:32 AM

Successful build - Chance fights ever on the side of the prudent.

Link to build: https://jenkins.wildfiregames.com/job/vs2015-differential/508/display/redirect

Vulcan added a comment.Nov 2 2019, 7:34 AM

Build failure - The Moirai have given mortals hearts that can endure.

Link to build: https://jenkins.wildfiregames.com/job/docker-differential/1023/display/redirect

Freagarach accepted this revision.Nov 2 2019, 8:03 AM
This revision is now accepted and ready to land.Nov 2 2019, 8:03 AM

I wonder if it is necessary to indicate the types of attack here.
The sentence could be shorter.

It is necessary to mention Melee and Ranged here because Capture is not affected.

It's true Capture is considered as an attack in templates but to express the capture we do not use the Attack word.
I think in the case of a capture it is necessary to specify like:
Soldiers and Siege Engines +25% attack rate, +25% capture rate.

I agree with @Polakrity here, I think “attack” should not be used to refer to capture in user-visible strings, and assuming melee and ranged attacks are the only possible attack types of potentially affected units, removing the attack type mention makes sense. I’m not sure is that assumption is correct, though. Can someone confirm that?

(There is also slaughter attack but one could ingore that.)

In favour of just attack:

  • The "Will to fight" tech increases attack (but not capture attack).

In favour of specifying the type of attack:

  • In the tooltip, capture is mentioned explicitly as Capture Attack. So not specifying the types may confuse people into thinking that capture is affected.
  • Auras specifies the type of attack which is modified (see D1808/rP22905).

In favour of specifying the type of attack:

  • In the tooltip, capture is mentioned explicitly as Capture Attack. So not specifying the types may confuse people into thinking that capture is affected.
  • Auras specifies the type of attack which is modified (see D1808/rP22905).

What if we rename any current instance of “capture attack” in user-visible strings to something else, such as “capture” or “capture action”?

Capture attack is an attack, though; as is slaughter attack; e.g. template_unit_infantry.xml:

<Attack>
  <Capture>
    <Capture>2</Capture>
    <MaxRange>4</MaxRange>
    <RepeatTime>1000</RepeatTime>
    <RestrictedClasses datatype="tokens">Field Palisade SiegeWall StoneWall</RestrictedClasses>
  </Capture>
  <Slaughter>
    <Damage>
      <Hack>50.0</Hack>
      <Pierce>0.0</Pierce>
      <Crush>0.0</Crush>
    </Damage>
    <MaxRange>2</MaxRange>
  </Slaughter>
</Attack>

Shall I merge the changes as is, then?

Thou hast my vote ;)

Right now I'm still unconvinced this is an improvement. Concerns I have:

  • time stays closest to the actual modifications, reducing the chance of future inconsistencies
  • rate is not less ambiguous than time
  • ×0.8 (−20%) → +25% works out nice, but how about e.g. ×0.85 (−15%) → +17.647% or some other value? Right now we don't have to round in tooltips, but if rate is adopted, then we would need a sensible policy for (manual) rounding as well.
  • time, not rate, is used for unit training (e.g. athen_player_teambonus.json) and researching technologies (e.g. gaul_player_teambonus.json)
  • gather technology descriptions have rate, but here the modified value is indeed a rate, not a time interval
  • how about siege engine pack time?

An argument in favour:

  • rate is used in healer technology descriptions (e.g. heal_rate.json)

On the forums there was not an overwhelming response for any option; presumably people don't really care.

That said, I won't veto this patch, if you strongly believe it's better than the status quo.

Polakrity added a comment.EditedNov 29 2019, 2:41 PM

I am against the use of the word time, at least alone.
rate is used mainly to talk about money or a pourcentage.
Here we are talking about a movement so the use of the word speed is more appropriate.

And I wonder why we do not use a verb to indicate the gain or loss of a value.
Which makes understanding easier I think.

The problem is the melee and ranged that make reading more difficult.
Maybe indicated in another line/sentence.