Slightly higher attack damage, hp and armor.
Experience Loot component decreased
Kennel limit: 5
Details
Details
The intent is to incentivate players to use wardogs for supporting their attacks.
Test done in phase 3: 50 wardogs vs 50 spearmen (no techs) 24 spearmen survived.
some historical references:
The earliest use of war dogs in a battle recorded in classical sources was by Alyattes of Lydia against the Cimmerians around 600 BC. The Lydian dogs killed some invaders and routed others.
Other civilizations used armored dogs to defend caravans or attack enemies. The Spanish conquistadors used armored dogs that had been trained to kill natives
Diff Detail
Diff Detail
- Repository
- rP 0 A.D. Public Repository
- Lint
Automatic diff as part of commit; lint not applicable. - Unit
Automatic diff as part of commit; unit tests not applicable.
Event Timeline
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Thanks, the kennel limit is absolutely needed as one can currently spawn an unlimited amount of dogs, given enough food come (unlimited food amount can be generated too with cavalry and corrals)
Are you sure the hack damage isn't too high?
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it isn't too high since, as you can see from the result, on a 50 vs 50 units, 24 enemy units (spearmen) survived and they had no upgrades at all.
I guess that cavalry with higher base armor will have much higher result.
The Hack damage isn't changed at all.
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it strongly depends from the engage.
On 3 tests done with a frontal engage, skirmishers won 2 times, the first with 25 survivors, the second with 23.
The dogs won 1 time only with 20 survivors.
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Why do dogs need more pierce damage? They shouldn't become too strong (but realistical) and consider they're cheap (only food, no pop cost)
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Nuke the attack damage, I'm ok with the other changes. Attack damage shouldn't be higher than that of well equipped men. Dogs shouldn't make up the entire army but remain support units. They cost 0 population, so are a significant advantage already.
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- Ok with elexis remarks
- Alphabetical order
- any reason for tweaking armour and not just increasing health?
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in that way, wardogs have more chances to survive while getting closer to the enemy troops, having a slightly weakness versus melee units which deal partial or total hack damage
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Once upon a time, dogs were OP. I think it must have been fixed here:
http://trac.wildfiregames.com/changeset/15713/ps/trunk/binaries/data/mods/public/simulation/templates/template_unit_dog.xml
Notice that Grugnas patch doesn't go near to the stats the template had before that commit.
Perhaps we should reduce the metal cost of the building slightly? Still keeping in mind that they cost no population (so 200 pop vs 150 pop in a 4v4 game is possible)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celtic_Hounds
Highlights of yesterdays lobby discussion:
(18:25:59) Hannibal_Baraq: i definitely won't train them like this
(18:26:14) Hannibal_Baraq: 100 food for some little cur who can't do anything
(18:26:48) Hannibal_Baraq: 50 dogs die in 2s
(18:26:59) Hannibal_Baraq: i prefer selling food in market and getting more champs
(18:28:30) elexis: yes, dont see where the metal is invested in
(18:28:34) elexis: can be nuked if you want that
(18:28:50) Hannibal_Baraq: 200 metal 50 stone 50 wood
(18:28:56) Hannibal_Baraq: for 50 dogs = x5
(18:29:04) Hannibal_Baraq: =1k metal 250 stonewood
(18:29:16) Grugnas: are you serious? 1k food per 10 dogs is huge food investment
(18:29:27) Hannibal_Baraq: 1000/50 dogs = 20
(18:29:28) Grugnas: they are fine with my stats imho
(18:29:33) Hannibal_Baraq: so 1 dog costs 20metal
(18:29:43) Hannibal_Baraq: at least the first 50
(19:07:01) borg-: dmg and hp for dogs is ok
(19:07:03) borg-: but armor no
(19:07:18) elexis: you think dogs should hurt more than men with spears?
(19:07:59) Grugnas: you see
(19:08:08) borg-: depends elexis
(19:08:18) borg-: one dog can kill one archer
(19:08:25) borg-: but die for spears
(19:08:34) borg-: in real life
(19:08:54) elexis: one bite from a dog hurts more than one stab by a spear from a man in reallife?
(19:08:56) borg-: Old fighting dogs were huge
(19:09:07) borg-: maybe 60 - 70 kilograms
(19:09:14) borg-: Some breeds
(19:10:02) borg-: A big dog can kill a spearman yes
(19:10:51) Hannibal_Baraq: agree with borgika
(19:11:26) elexis: the question wsa whether _one_ dogbite is more deadily than _one_ stab with a spear
(19:13:29) elexis: 70kg dog? show me an image
(19:14:47) borg-: search
(19:14:48) borg-: Dogue de Bordéus
(19:15:08) borg-: são-bernardo
(19:15:26) borg-: terra-nova
(19:15:37) borg-: Leonberger
(19:16:21) borg-: now search mastiff
(19:16:24) borg-: 100kg++
(19:20:06) borg-: this dogs dont have armors
(19:20:10) borg-: in this models
(19:20:14) borg-: more realistc maybe
(19:20:43) borg-: I see them as units to kill light units, not tanks/killers
(19:21:22) borg-: Should be vulnerable and used with care
(19:25:05) Grugnas: if u really care, try on svn
(19:25:10) Grugnas: we can also play if u want
(19:25:17) Grugnas: same for all my patches about balancing
(19:25:35) borg-: I trust you, you're a great player.
(19:25:37) Grugnas: i cant really play alone
To top it off:
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While pierce armor affect pierce damage only, the intent to have a stronger defence versus projectiles is well accomplished and replaces the necessity of a higher amount of health points,
this is because 1 armor point more means that an unit survives with 15 or more health points in a fight.
Since britons start a match with 1 dog already, the intent was to not being a too big threat for women, result that could have a 10 hp more. This is because most of the women have 2hack damage and the hits required for killing a dog would have been 5 more, pretty high amount considering the dog attack increase.
Of 50 skirmishers fighting a group of 50 dogs, 47 units survived before this patch, 24 after. Those changes don't seems so useless at all.
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Of 50 skirmishers fighting a group of 50 dogs, 47 units survived before this patch, 24 after. Those changes don't seems so useless at all.
Not convinced at all by that kind of argument :-)
(I hope tommorow someone will not ask to have 2.0 crush attack for dog).
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-> 5 sword champs survived with more than 5HP for the one that had dogs
Two tests with something like rP19322
-> 5 sword champs survived with more than 5HP for the one that had dogs
best of todays endless discussion:
(18:16:59) elexis: numbers dont matter exactly, the point is dogs are similar to citizen soldiers
(18:17:14) Hannibal_Baraq: theoratcically..
(18:17:18) elexis: pracitcally
(18:17:23) elexis: but with 0 pop cost
(18:17:27) fatherbushido: ^
(18:18:00) Grugnas: 5k food isnt easy to stockpile
(18:18:12) Hannibal_Baraq: nor is 2500 WF
(18:25:49) elexis: Grugnas will be the official dog spokesperson if its op
(18:26:09) Grugnas: i am read to be crucifixed -.-
(18:28:57) elexis: trailing whitespace
(18:30:31) fatherbushido: still don't see the point of armor change
(18:30:40) fatherbushido: It sounds wrong in my tables
(18:30:47) Grugnas: they survive when raiding trade
(18:30:48) Grugnas: :P
(18:30:58) elexis: could be accomplished with higher health too as borg said
(18:31:06) Grugnas: it isnt the same
(18:31:08) Grugnas: i replied
(18:39:07) Grugnas: dogs explode while running in the enemy territory because towers insta kill them
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Last iteration:
(21:10:50) elexis: borg-: impossible to convince grugnas xd
(21:11:28) borg-: Grugnas
(21:11:36) borg-: only in team games
(21:11:48) borg-: example pop max 150 and more 50 dogs
(21:12:11) borg-: nerf in max dogs, maybe 30
(21:14:50) borg-: You should consider a change for 30 just
(21:15:31) borg-: Even because Celts already have some advantages that make it the best civs
(21:15:35) Grugnas: do you think that 5k food and 1k metal is easy to get?
(21:15:56) borg-: food is very easy for brit or gauls
(21:16:00) Grugnas: easier than getting armor tech and kill dogs so fast?
(21:16:09) Grugnas: i agree
(21:16:26) Grugnas: celts have some advantages too big in some situations
(21:16:30) borg-: y
(21:16:39) Grugnas: maybe 30 can work, you are right, but
(21:16:50) Grugnas: 50 dogs vs 50 skirmishers, 24 skirmishers survive
(21:16:56) Grugnas: with +1 tech
(21:17:02) Grugnas: a lot more skirmishers will survive
(21:17:20) Grugnas: dogs die easy, and they are not easy to train
(21:17:25) Grugnas: train time increased from 12 to 15
(21:17:30) borg-: its true,
(21:17:33) borg-: but
(21:17:34) Grugnas: you have to spend 1k metal and 5k food
(21:17:37) Grugnas: for 50 dogs
(21:17:45) Grugnas: they cannot destroy rams anymore
(21:17:57) borg-: example in team games
(21:18:06) borg-: 4 brits vs 4 other civs
(21:18:14) borg-: and have big fight
(21:18:18) Grugnas: yes i understand what u say
(21:18:20) Grugnas: thats true tho
(21:18:40) borg-: 100 mans x 4 vs 100 x 4 + 200 dogs
(21:18:47) borg-: 400 vs 600
(21:19:10) borg-: I would like to see a little less Celtic in games in the next alpha
(21:19:18) Grugnas: ahah
(21:19:24) borg-: :D
(21:19:31) borg-: 30 more sense for me
(21:20:04) borg-: In fact I wanted 20, elexis prefere 30
(21:20:13) borg-: He is on your side haha
(21:20:27) Grugnas: it is that
(21:20:33) Grugnas: i want to test 5 kennel first
(21:20:41) Grugnas: because i used dogs often recently
(21:20:49) Grugnas: and 160 dogs killed 7 men only
(21:21:00) Grugnas: if they are too many, i agree on 3 kennels
(21:21:03) Grugnas: i can
(21:21:11) Grugnas: *i cant try playing games alone XD
(21:21:58) Grugnas: i only wanted to test 5 kennels, not sure if they are really op
(21:22:28) Grugnas: i agree that 30 seems better, but since we made no test
(21:22:31) Grugnas: i am not convinced 100%
(21:23:16) Grugnas: i tried 160 dogs for a total of 16k food
(21:23:28) Grugnas: they disappeared vs fpre units, and they killed 7 men only
(21:23:41) Grugnas: also if they have shit stats, i hoped they'd kill many more
(21:23:58) Grugnas: so, watching 50 dogs with slightly better stats, dont see them as a real problem
(22:18:43) elexis: 4 kennels ok? (don't speak more than 5 sentences to save my heart pls)
(22:24:10) Grugnas: try with 5 please