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[gameplay] Loom buff
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Authored by ValihrAnt on Jan 20 2020, 6:32 PM.

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Summary

In a23 Loom is a technology entirely ignored and forgotten about. In fact, so forgotten about that I had to explain where to find it and what it does to a bunch of people. This patch attempts to remedy that. It will now offer a two-time hp increase but will also cost 50 additional food. The important thing about loom is that the technology is easily accessible, but not so easily accessible that people research it right away. 200 food cost doesn't seem like much, but it is a lot early on in the game.

Test Plan

The change was tested on the balance mod. It's possible that there are mentions of Loom and the old values somewhere else, double check that.

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Event Timeline

ValihrAnt created this revision.Jan 20 2020, 6:32 PM
elexis added a subscriber: elexis.Jan 28 2020, 9:16 PM

forgotten about that I had to explain where to find it and what it does to a bunch of people

Forgetting means that they knew about the tech at one time.
I guess its more than most players learn from other players which technologies are important and thus never learnt about this, or never considered it.
Thats relevant because then the solution to the problem would be making the tech more obvious, or considering the problem rather a user mistake, since all technologies are already advertized in the structure tree, ready for the dedicated players to perceive, learn and judge.
Also increasing the numbers wouldn't make the information more available except for the word of mouth in the lobby.
But youre right that the missing use of the tech might be taken as an indication that its not useful currently.
Either that is the reason, or that people never consider it. Or because the one time in the match where the tech would be most useful is passed quickly and then its not useful anymore (because the game is already won, or because one changed to corral economy, or because one has so much food in the bank already.)

The important thing about loom is that the technology is easily accessible, but not so easily accessible that people research it right away

I agree, ideally the player should have to consider and strategize when researching techs, whether they're currently useful, or better later on / not at all, or whether other techs or training of more units is more fruitful, also expression of risk-vs-reward decisions using the techs.

My question is how do we determine the best values so that some players will chose to research the technology and others not (or only in some situations).
How do I/we know 200 is better than 250, how do we know that 200% is not too much, not too little?

That the change was tested in the balance mod doesnt imply that the test was conclusive (perhaps people didnt consider it either there).
For instance were there rushes in the matches? Were those 1v1 games where attacking early economy might happen more often? Were it players who did rushes?

Otherwise I think I agree with buffing it, and not adding more than 50% in one step seems reasonable to avoid a tech becoming too strong.
(I suppose in the worst case killing women would be too unrewardful, incentivizing that people turtle instead of doing rushes)

Nescio added a subscriber: Nescio.Jan 28 2020, 10:25 PM

Out of curiosity, why does the technology cost food? Wouldn't wood or metal make more sense? Cf. armour technologies.
I'm not against this tweak, though I doubt it'll make a difference; people will probably continue to ignore it.

Forgetting means that they knew about the tech at one time.
I guess its more than most players learn from other players which technologies are important and thus never learnt about this, or never considered it.
Thats relevant because then the solution to the problem would be making the tech more obvious, or considering the problem rather a user mistake, since all technologies are already advertized in the structure tree, ready for the dedicated players to perceive, learn and judge.
Also increasing the numbers wouldn't make the information more available except for the word of mouth in the lobby.
But youre right that the missing use of the tech might be taken as an indication that its not useful currently.
Either that is the reason, or that people never consider it. Or because the one time in the match where the tech would be most useful is passed quickly and then its not useful anymore (because the game is already won, or because one changed to corral economy, or because one has so much >food in the bank already.)

Yes, the tech isn't hidden in a dark corner. A house is probably the most used building and I'm sure that nearly all players will have looked at the 3 techs available in it, but while the other two are useful situationally, Loom ends up being very underwhelming. In the very early raids consisting of few units, Loom doesn't come into play due to the upfront cost delaying the beginning of researching and the research time itself, which I think is good. I don't want people to just get loom right away no matter what. In the later rush consisting of more units, it also plays little to no part because an extra hit often doesn't mean much. Going from 2 to 3 hits for javelin cavalry and from 3 to 4 for spear cavalry. However, with the frequent overkill due to many attackers targeting the same enemy unit, the tech can be unnoticeable again. In late game food raids, it ends up being quite useless again. Quite often Loom won't even increase the number of hits it takes a unit to get a kill. So, while investing in Loom as the game goes on is certainly not bad it generally doesn't come up on the mind due to the little effect. Certainly, I don't think of it. There's a reason both borg and feld buffed it in their mods.

My question is how do we determine the best values so that some players will choose to research the technology and others not (or only in some situations).
How do I/we know 200 is better than 250, how do we know that 200% is not too much, not too little?

For the best values, it's basically impossible to know definitively. I know that going much over a 2.0 time hp increase is a bad idea from test games done in borgs mod where I was able to successfully spam women from houses as a cheap and quick meatshield.

That the change was tested in the balance mod doesnt imply that the test was conclusive (perhaps people didnt consider it either there).
For instance were there rushes in the matches? Were those 1v1 games where attacking early economy might happen more often? Were it players who did rushes?

I did inform players about the technology changes at the start of the games when the mod was newer, later on stopped doing that. Even then I saw people researching it in the most recent matches. I have also played multiple aggressive 1v1s against feld and Loom was researched in each of those games, either as a response to scouting the other one massing up cavalry or when it felt like the enemy will be capable of doing good food harass.

Out of curiosity, why does the technology cost food? Wouldn't wood or metal make more sense? Cf. armour technologies.

Wood can still make sense, metal not so much in my opinion. The thing about food and wood is that they're the two most important resources for early development. Metal isn't needed to develop economy and so a player could easily research it right after building their first house. If Loom were to be researched in the Civic center and thus stop production of units from it for a set amount of time then metal would be fine as a player would sacrifice economic growth for it.

I'm not against this tweak, though I doubt it'll make a difference; people will probably continue to ignore it.

I'm certain there will still be people who will still ignore it, but hopefully more people will use it. Loom did seem like a more worthwhile investment in my experience.

elexis accepted this revision.Jan 29 2020, 7:40 PM

Reasons provided for the cost and effect changes are reproducible, have been tested, are necessary but not excessive, therefore a correct variant.
Didn't find the string loom in json, js and xml files other than this, so changes seem complete.

2.0 -> 2, judging by D2000 and D2280

there will still be people who will still ignore it

(One could add a loading screen tooltip if one wanted to)

Thanks for the effort!

This revision is now accepted and ready to land.Jan 29 2020, 7:40 PM
This revision was automatically updated to reflect the committed changes.
Nescio retitled this revision from Loom buff to [gameplay] Loom buff.Mar 19 2020, 10:54 AM