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[gameplay] Balance ranged infantry citizen soldiers
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Authored by ValihrAnt on Feb 2 2020, 3:35 PM.

Details

Summary

This patch buffs archers and nerfs slingers. The goal was not to go overboard with the changes and avoid making either unit OP or useless. For slingers, their accuracy was reduced to be right between archers and skirmishers, and their damage output was reduced by nearly 4%. In testing, they still were very strong and fun to use. While I received some requests to nerf them further, I believe this is a big enough change to push them away from being overpowered and into being strong territory.
Archers have received a 12% damage buff and while in testing they were much more usable, they weren't great and I am afraid to buff them further due to 2 reasons. First of all, it's possible that none of us were using them to their full potential as they require a much slower playstyle than the other units due to struggling to deal with armored units like pikemen and spearmen. Additionally, they can be chased down by any ranged unit in the game so overextending and bad positioning is much more deadly. Secondly, archers would probably be the worst unit to be OP as to just how annoying they would be to deal with, so I'd rather buff them again in a24 if they turn out to still be too weak.

Test Plan

Changes were tested on the balance mod.

Diff Detail

Repository
rP 0 A.D. Public Repository
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Unit
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Event Timeline

ValihrAnt created this revision.Feb 2 2020, 3:35 PM
elexis accepted this revision.Feb 2 2020, 5:35 PM
elexis added a subscriber: elexis.

I'd rather buff them again in a24 if they turn out to still be too weak.

I agree with that.

afraid to buff them further

The patch is not nerfing slingers too harshly already?
I dont have an indication how much the spread change will affect battles.
The last change to spread I saw was rP21282.
It changed from 3 to 4, the change in this diff is 3 to 3.5.
So in that regard it seems to be a nerf conserving the attack profile of the unit.

accuracy was reduced to be right between archers and skirmishers, and their damage output was reduced by nearly 4%.

That also would be an indication for a balance (although building an average of numbers can also mean that units become more alike, but one of the original visions was also that unit types are differentiated / unique roles ).

So for slingers:

  • Pierce nerf seems correct because the unit is deemed too strong at the moment in comparison to other units (that must include skirmishers? for archers, perhaps the archer buff might already be sufficient?) and the nerf preserves the attack profile.
  • Crush nerf seems correct because its only 10% and because the unit is known to be too effective against buildings (is it actually true? thats not in the unit role? Everyone has a different opinion on that and it was in the counter graphs of )
  • Spread nerf might be in line with the preservative nerf, but is it in line with the role of the unit too? Is it ballistically accurate?

Changes were tested on the balance mod.

Again doesnt state whether that were 2 1v1s or 8 4v4s. I don't see much here https://wildfiregames.com/forum/index.php?/topic/27203-balance-mod-to-test-changes/page/2/ but I guess you know what you're speaking of when considering balance, given your involvement.

I guess I can/have to accept this if noone else does, and let it sit for some days to change ones mind after more testing games.
Guess I should have played more a23b and that mod in order to actually judge.
(The solution of the problem is still a bit ambiguous, as the balancing could be implemented in many ways with many different unit roles, or with existing roles but different component properties modified)

This revision is now accepted and ready to land.Feb 2 2020, 5:35 PM
badosu added a subscriber: badosu.EditedFeb 2 2020, 6:13 PM

Again doesnt state whether that were 2 1v1s or 8 4v4s.

Just for reference, I've been watching both 4v4s and 1v1s on the latest balance mod iteration for the last few weeks and can attest there were at least a couple dozen matches played, with a big variety of civ choices/map/number of players.

Even with the archer buff and slinger nerf we see that, in my own opinion, the civilization tiers did not change much. So given the context I can confirm these are very safe changes to the balance with positive results.

although building an average of numbers can also mean that units become more alike, but one of the original visions was also that unit types are differentiated / unique roles
Spread nerf might be in line with the preservative nerf, but is it in line with the role of the unit too? Is it ballistically accurate?

I didn't even think of the fact that it does make units more similar. Slings are weapons that are much harder and also take longer to become proficient with than bows. Even then an archer will be able to hit the target more consistently. So it would make sense for slingers to be more inaccurate than archers, though the patch doesn't really do that. The current change only means that they will miss a few more shots if fighting at maximum range.

Again doesnt state whether that were 2 1v1s or 8 4v4s.

I should've mentioned that right away. From checking the replays of the newest version I have 4 4v4s, 1 3v3 and 16 1v1s.

Nescio retitled this revision from Balance ranged infantry citizen soldiers to [gameplay] Balance ranged infantry citizen soldiers.Mar 19 2020, 10:54 AM

I agree with that change

This revision was automatically updated to reflect the committed changes.