Page MenuHomeWildfire Games

[gameplay] make Caratacos and Maximus auras local
Needs ReviewPublic

Authored by Nescio on Mar 1 2020, 12:47 PM.

Details

Reviewers
None
Group Reviewers
Balancing
Summary

brit_hero_caratacos.json and rome_hero_maximus.json are arguably two of the best hero auras available. +1 armour is equivalent to +11% health, globally, unlike most hero auras, which are local.
This patch changes them from global to a range of 60. For comparison, sele_hero_antiochus_great.json gives Cavalry +2 armour within a 45 range.

Test Plan

Agree this is an improvement.

Event Timeline

Nescio created this revision.Mar 1 2020, 12:47 PM
Stan added a subscriber: Stan.Mar 1 2020, 12:49 PM

Gameplay tag?

Successful build - Chance fights ever on the side of the prudent.

Link to build: https://jenkins.wildfiregames.com/job/docker-differential/1832/display/redirect

Nescio retitled this revision from make Caratacos and Maximus auras local to [gameplay] make Caratacos and Maximus auras local.Mar 1 2020, 1:09 PM
Nescio added a comment.Mar 1 2020, 1:12 PM

Gameplay tag?

It would be nice if there were a “gameplay balance” review group. (O17, maybe?)

Stan added a reviewer: Restricted Owners Package.Mar 18 2020, 12:25 PM

I'm not sure about that change. I feel that the +20% damage heroes with local are better anyway so making the +1 armor local makes it feel pretty weak for me.
On a side note, antiochus is fine (compared to his counterpart, that one persian hero that gives attack to cavalry) because it allows to micro away the cavalry to save them before they die and heal them which helps them get promoted

I feel that the +20% damage heroes with local are better anyway so making the +1 armor local makes it feel pretty weak for me.

Whilst +20% attack damage is indeed better than +1 armour, what matters is the classes it affects and the area it works on. To keep things balanced there is a trade-off.
Caratacos affects soldiers and siege engines, Maximus humans (i.e. soldiers, heroes, and support units) and structures. Furthermore, a radius of 60 means an area 4× as large as a radius of 30, 2.25× as large as radius of 40, and 1.78× as large as a radius of 45.
For comparison:

  • Scipio gives soldiers and siege engines +20% attack damage, but only within a radius of 30.
  • Seleucus grants +20% attack damage within a radius of 60, but affect only Champion Elephants.
  • Boudica grants Champions +20% attack damage within a radius of 40.

On a side note, antiochus is fine (compared to his counterpart, that one persian hero that gives attack to cavalry) because it allows to micro away the cavalry to save them before they die and heal them which helps them get promoted

Exactly! Cyrus (Cavalry +20% attack damage within a radius of 45) and Antiochus (Cavalry +2 armour within a radius of 45) are counterparts and don't need changing.

I was thinking of the generic +20% attack heroes (Vercingetorix iirc has radius 60, affects soldiers and maybe siege), Hannibal also has radius 60, affects own and allied units. Compared to them, Scipio, Seleucus and Boudica feel like in a lower tier.

Ideally all hero auras ought to be more or less equally good.
Maybe Hannibal and Vercingetorix should get a shorter range (e.g. 30, like Scipio), a lower bonus (e.g. 10%), some other penalty (e.g. -1 armour), or an entirely different aura altogether.
That could be included here or done in a separate patch.
There might some other auras that could use tweaking; I didn't check them all. When proposing this patch, I believe I was mostly looking at the global auras.

To be honest I think a lot of work is needed to balance the heroes while keeping their bonus diversified and somewhat accurate historically. I think there was once a patch by @Hannibal_Barca with many of the changes I proposed or agreed on.

Yeah, that's it. It's been a long time, I kinda forgot about it

I can include this patch for D1400, however before doing so we could agree on the changes here. I think the change for Caratacos is fine as 15% movement speed is quite strong. However Maximus would be pretty weak. Ideas to buff him could be to make the radius bigger (80 meters ?) or having it affect allied units too. But it's true that the aura being global doesn't sound nice from a gameplay perspective (the hero could be hiding somewhere in the map and still give his bonus, it also means unnaturally less intel for the enemies).

badosu added a subscriber: badosu.EditedJun 14 2020, 1:18 AM

I agree that Caratacos (or even Maximus FWIW) bonus is not really a big of a deal.

There's a wide consensus between players that the best heroes are the ones that provide combat buffs locally (Vercingetorix, Iphicrates) or time/cost reducing bonuses for recruiting units (Ptolemy, Indibil). As an example of that you will see Scipio Africanus more often than Maximus in gameplay.

I actually like heroes having a big impact in the game, the problem is that many heroes are quite bad, giving bonuses/effects in areas that, for their purpose make sense, but in practice are never used.

Some civilizations don't even have a decent roster of heroes (e.g. Kushites) to pick from, or they have at least one good hero but it's very situational (e.g. Antiochus/Darius for cavalry, Demetrius for siege, Amnirense for champs). Situational heroes could give a small boost to combat or economy, e.g. 5% attack etc, so they are still somewhat useful until you are able to afford their condition, or even have the situational bonus overpowered (but not game breaking).

I commented in other diffs related to hero changes about this issue (https://code.wildfiregames.com/D2682), the main points to balance are (in order of relevance, in my experience):

  • Bonus/effect and how situational it is
  • Mobility
  • Tankiness
  • Combat prowess

Each of these points above are relevant for different use cases, you will often see cavalry heroes harassing enemy fields, elephant heroes defending siege or attacking structures, etc...

Take for example Acharya, the mauryan healer hero, you will almost never see him being used for his effect (technology speed and cost), even though in theory it seems quite decent. A global effect would make more sense for him. When he is used, it's as a very bad replacement for Cunobelin.

Or Xerxes, an infantry hero with 1000 health that only gives 15% bonus for gather rates in a 60 meter radius while Britomartus offers the same effect but global.

And these are not even the worst heroes.

I would like to see heroes like these buffed, instead of having the others nerfed. Not only in terms of bonuses, but considering their balance in relation to the heros attributes (the 4 aforementioned points). Nerfing the seemingly overpowered heroes will only decrease the relevance of heroes in general, and still be unbalanced.

It must also be considered whether the set of heroes for a civilization is balanced, if all heroes provide situational bonuses that are not used often then even if the bonus is quite good it still might not be enough. I like having situational bonuses, but perhaps there should be at least one good general purpose hero per civilization (e.g. combat, training or economic buffs).

This would bring variety and fun to gameplay, especially if you have actual competing choices between heroes instead of a single one that's not terrible, and picking your hero has actual impact in your strategy.

Take for example Acharya, the mauryan healer hero, you will almost never see him being used for his effect (technology speed and cost), even though in theory it seems quite decent. A global effect would make more sense for him. When he is used, it's as a very bad replacement for Cunobelin.

I don't know what heroes other people train when playing Mauryans, but for me Acharya is the only one I train and definitely doesn't need a buff. Being able to get techs for cheaper and faster is huge for gaining a military advantage over the opponent. The resources saved on the blacksmith upgrades allow to pick up Will to Fight much more easily and then he still has great use on the frontline.

I can include this patch for D1400, however before doing so we could agree on the changes here.

I think Caratacos is fine at 60m. Maximus having a larger aura would be beneficial.
The main thing that doesn't make much sense are heroes that give +20% extra attack to all units vs the ones that give +20% attack to only champions. Being more specialized means the bonus should be better too right?

Ideas to buff him could be to make the radius bigger (80 meters ?)

Keep in mind area is pi times radius square:

radius → area      ; normalized
10 →   314         ; 0.03
20 →  1257 (+300%) ; 0.11
30 →  2827 (+125%) ; 0.25
40 →  5027 (+78%)  ; 0.44
50 →  7854 (+56%)  ; 0.69
60 → 11310 (+44%)  ; 1
70 → 15394 (+36%)  ; 1.36
80 → 20106 (+31%)  ; 1.78

Maximus having a larger aura would be beneficial.

What do you think about having it affect allies ? This idea is already used for the Hannibal Barca hero. With 60m I feel like that's already enough to cover whole army anyway given a little bit of micro. That said it doesn't go well with the aura name.

The main thing that doesn't make much sense are heroes that give +20% extra attack to all units vs the ones that give +20% attack to only champions. Being more specialized means the bonus should be better too right?

Feel free to give your opinions in D1400. But yeah Boudica could use a buff, 25% attack increase for champions should be a minimum. However slight imbalances between heroes aren't out of the table I think, it could be used as some sort of civilization bonuses, or could be balanced with having other heroes being a bit better. It would be fine if heroes are situationnal, or if they can't be retrained after dying.

Nescio removed a reviewer: Restricted Owners Package.Aug 15 2020, 9:09 PM