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Civ specific catafalque templates and auras
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Authored by Hannibal_Barca on Mar 28 2017, 12:09 AM.

Details

Summary

As elexis discussed with Sandarac in irc, me and Grugnas in the lobby, proposed in #4518, D152 and rP19345,
we should have civ specific catafalque templates. This allows

(1) We can name a great leader that remains in each catafalque spawned
(2) Those catafalques become unique, even if multiple of them exist on a map
(3) Each of these relics can receive a slight bonus, similar to heroes, for example auras or resource trickle

The units therefore become more interesting to collect , even if not owning all of them

(4) Allows specification of civ specific visual actors

https://github.com/user8239/oad_dev

Test Plan

Check that none of the figureheads proposed exist as trainable heroes.
Verify that all auras are supported and work as advertized.
Confirm that the proposed bonuses are remotely related to the deeds of the proposed figurehead.
The strings should be grammatically correct and not too long.

Diff Detail

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rP 0 A.D. Public Repository
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Build 1570: Vulcan BuildJenkins

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Vulcan added a comment.Apr 1 2017, 1:03 AM

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elexis added a subscriber: fatherbushido.
  • Adding Gallaecio to quickly read through the strings and perhaps find some improvements or issues. For one of the strings I'm wondering whether it isn't too explicit with regards to violent history.
  • We're trying to find a nice balance of the bonuses of the different relics, so it were great if the numbers Hannibal and me came up with are confimed by Grugnas and borg-. (We need to keep in mnd that we not only want attack bonuses and not only consider 1v1 games).
Grugnas added inline comments.Apr 1 2017, 11:26 AM
binaries/data/mods/public/simulation/templates/other/catafalque/mace_catafalque.xml
14

You'd like to consider that Wonder and Persian Palace metal tickle isn't that high.

Unlike persian palace which gives at a rate of 1-1-0.75-0.75 or a wonder which gives 0.5-0.5-0.5-0.5/s, this catafalque gives only 1 resource.
Your logic is that single gathering rate should be > all gathering rate, I applied that logic here. Since we can call Stone and Metal "Precious Resources", it means that the Palace gets 1.5/ second, along with a bonus of food and wood. The Wonder also has a rate of 1 precious resource/second with same food and wood bonus.

In light of this and that +25% loot isn't much, I think we should keep it as it is. Reducing rate would make it much inferior to other catafalques which don't have such an obvious benefit.

Grugnas edited edge metadata.Apr 1 2017, 3:18 PM

I'm glad you took in consideration my logic, but I would say the same for its application:

While economic reforms aura  gives a 10% gather speed to any worker,   Iron Pelanors gives 10% gather speed to metal workers only.

While Persian palace gives 0.75metal /sec and Wonder gives 0.5 metal / sec at phase 3, potentially the macedonian catafalque can yield more than 2000 metal in 40 min, basically higher than the persian palace income, the wonder income or a Brennus aura income. (theorically a catafalque captured at minute 0 would produce 2400 metal in 40 minutes, but i like to be realistic).

we should have civ specific catafalque templates. This allows
(1) We can name a great leader that remains in each catafalque spawned
(2) Those catafalques become unique, even if multiple of them exist on a map
(3) Each of these relics can receive a slight bonus, similar to heroes, for example auras or >resource trickle

Agree with the summary.

Some remarks, that's not really the question I ask, but the question which can be asked.

  • splitting in folders seems a good idea. The same can be done for those auras perhaps. See @leper for that imo.
  • ((nothing wrong but) consider that the relic are spawned as gaia (for auras))
  • In the range of auras description we should have something like at end. "Effect Range: 50 meters" (I read some complains on transifex about that).
  • I know that we need some abstraction, but it sounds really wrong to have a relic of Philip V which is born after all the others macedonians hero in the game.
  • I really like the historic work and the provided description.
  • Most of the aura's description should be move to Identity tooltip.
  • I read in a french forum complains about aura of our hero (it sounds a bit too much magical). Again we are in abstraction. Here it sounds even worse. But I am not really disturb by that, just the description seems to justify the effect, which sounds bad. How what a guy did alive can have effect when we get his bones. I understand the abstraction (people are happy and fight harder or gather faster), but we shouldn't try to justify it. Moving most of the auras description to the Identity tooltip again should do the job.
  • The other thing which is annoying is the fact that a civ related catafalque have effect on another civ. (Perhaps going on some powerfull effect on civ specific building is a thing to explore)
  • I would not make comment on the different modifications, they seem different enough. Such discussion lead often to eternal subjective discussion. Imo we don't need to have them perfectly balanced (I like some imbalance). (I thought to garrison aura too but that's not relevant). The essential thing is too keep them different enough and not too redundant with the heros aura. (Some really powerfull things can also be considered).
  • Icon for global auras doesn't seem really good (there should be some in the current auras I guess). Keep them for the moment :p
  • It sounds a bit weird to have Indibil in a catafalque and perhaps also alive :)
  • I like that we are back to one of the essential aspect of the game (historical "accuracy") and I like the well documented work and the related strings. I am just a bit sad that we didn't already do that work for the other heros (3 iberians, 1 roman) and for the missing team bonuses (despite some discussions - even a long one with the author of that diff). See Indibil for example.
Hannibal_Barca added a comment.EditedApr 1 2017, 4:36 PM

I understand your passion for this game and your concern to be accurate ;)
But with this aura, I think the owning player will have a much harder time, be it a diplomacy, all vs all or a team game due to the fact that everyone will want to own such a valuable object. So the cost of keeping it adds up, meanwhile still making it worthwhile to collect as many catafalques as you can(unlike the current attack-magnets :p).

Edit: this was typed to grugnas

elexis added a comment.Apr 1 2017, 7:04 PM

Agree with the summary.

Thanks for your consideration. I was worried concerns might arise once it's committed ;-)

folders

Agree. Wasn't sure whether it works. But as it works for team bonuses, we should do it here too. Also move hero auras afterwards.

"Effect Range: 50 meters"

True, should be done until we have generic aura tooltips.

relic of Philip V which is born after all the others macedonian heroes

Indeed seems weird, but we have this issue with trainable heroes too and in case we take that seriously we would have to add a lot of changes to most things in the games, for example which civ can encounter which other civ. So meh.

  • I really like the historic work and the provided description.

Me too, will educate players, which is one of the purposes of this game!

  • Most of the aura's description should be move to Identity tooltip.

How what a guy did alive can have effect when we get his bones

Remarked by others as well. The idea is that the soldiers and workers are motivated by the ideas that the now dead guy spread. So not necessarily a conflict.

civ related catafalque have effect on another civ

Not really an issue. Alexander the great did an honorful funeral at a temple for some persian hero. We can interpret it as honoring the leaders of other civs too or getting the fame of having captured those.

-modifications eternal subjective discussion

yes -.-

  • Icon for global auras

good point, should be removed

Indibil in a catafalque and perhaps also alive :)

Nope, it's Mandonius

a bit sad that we didn't already do that work for the other heros (3 iberians, 1 roman) and for the missing team bonuses

Patches welcome by anyone and it seems Grugnas is at it currently

binaries/data/mods/public/simulation/templates/other/catafalque/cart_catafalque.xml
7

Specific name should state which of all these Hasdrubal characters we have. Should be Hasdrubal Barca afaik

elexis added inline comments.Apr 1 2017, 8:35 PM
binaries/data/mods/public/simulation/templates/other/catafalque/cart_catafalque.xml
7
fatherbushido added a comment.EditedApr 1 2017, 8:39 PM
In D269#11063, @elexis wrote:

Indibil in a catafalque and perhaps also alive :)

Nope, it's Mandonius

I scrambled

EDIT: @Hannibal_Barca can you say to who you speak above (it seems it's to me as it's obviously not to me)

elexis added inline comments.Apr 1 2017, 9:14 PM
binaries/data/mods/public/simulation/data/auras/catafalques/athen_catafalque_1.json
12

whitespace

binaries/data/mods/public/simulation/data/auras/catafalques/spart_catafalque_3.json
7

space and before the braces

binaries/data/mods/public/simulation/templates/other/catafalque/cart_catafalque.xml
7

Hannibal agreed to call it "Hasdrubal, commander of the service corps"

Vulcan added a comment.Apr 1 2017, 9:19 PM

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Grugnas accepted this revision.Apr 1 2017, 11:33 PM
This revision is now accepted and ready to land.Apr 1 2017, 11:33 PM
Gallaecio requested changes to this revision.Apr 2 2017, 2:15 AM

I’ve added some inline comments about description contents. Most of them are mere subjective suggestions, but I would like to at least enforce the “defence” → “defense” change (assuming that the rest of the game uses US spelling).

binaries/data/mods/public/simulation/data/auras/catafalques/brit_catafalque.json
11
  • How about “Seeing how entrenched defence was useless […]”? (just an alternative suggestion, feel free to ignore it)
  • «defense» (US spelling)
  • “the Roman army” (lowecase “a” in “army”)
binaries/data/mods/public/simulation/data/auras/catafalques/gaul_catafalque_2.json
10
  • Consider removing the extra space in “Caesar sent”.
binaries/data/mods/public/simulation/data/auras/catafalques/iber_catafalque_1.json
10
  • What about replacing “took part” with “fought”?
binaries/data/mods/public/simulation/data/auras/catafalques/mace_catafalque.json
12
  • “for every enemy unit killed or structure destroyed.”
binaries/data/mods/public/simulation/data/auras/catafalques/maur_catafalque_1.json
9
  • “the empire” (lowercase “e” in “empire”); only in the description, in the name it is OK.
binaries/data/mods/public/simulation/data/auras/catafalques/rome_catafalque_1.json
10

Some alternative wording choices to consider: “After the rape of Lucretia by the son of King Tarquinius Superbus and her subsequent suicide, Brutus vowed to avenge her and overthrow the monarchy. Female citizens cost 20% less and work 10% faster.”

binaries/data/mods/public/simulation/data/auras/catafalques/rome_catafalque_2.json
11

Some alternative wording choices to consider: “Brutus was one of the key figures in the overthrow of the monarchy and the founding of the Roman Republic. Later, as consul, he led a Roman army to victory against the Etruscan King Tarquinius who sought to retake the throne. +10% armour for all units and sieges.”

binaries/data/mods/public/simulation/data/auras/catafalques/sele_catafalque_1.json
14

What about reversing the order of the parts in the last sentence? (“-10% resource cost for temples and temple technologies.”)

binaries/data/mods/public/simulation/data/auras/catafalques/spart_catafalque_1.json
12

“-10% resource cost for spear citizen units.”

binaries/data/mods/public/simulation/data/auras/catafalques/spart_catafalque_2.json
12

“-5% resource cost for spear champions.”

binaries/data/mods/public/simulation/data/auras/pers_catafalque.json
12 ↗(On Diff #1052)

“+5% health and -5% resource cost for all buildings.”

This revision now requires changes to proceed.Apr 2 2017, 2:15 AM
Hannibal_Barca edited edge metadata.

Many of the suggested changes done.

Hannibal_Barca marked 11 inline comments as done.Apr 2 2017, 11:59 AM
Hannibal_Barca marked 2 inline comments as done.
Vulcan added a comment.Apr 2 2017, 1:30 PM

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fatherbushido requested changes to this revision.Apr 2 2017, 1:33 PM

Move the not modification part of the auras description elsewhere (history tooltip should be displayed someday).

This revision now requires changes to proceed.Apr 2 2017, 1:33 PM
fatherbushido added inline comments.Apr 2 2017, 3:34 PM
binaries/data/mods/public/simulation/data/auras/catafalques/athen_catafalque_2.json
11

at least make things coherent. Do you display effect? stories? random stuff?

fatherbushido resigned from this revision.Apr 2 2017, 3:36 PM
Vulcan added a comment.Apr 2 2017, 6:17 PM

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borg- accepted this revision.Apr 2 2017, 6:30 PM
Gallaecio accepted this revision.Apr 2 2017, 7:07 PM
This revision is now accepted and ready to land.Apr 2 2017, 7:07 PM
elexis added a comment.Apr 2 2017, 9:32 PM

Move the not modification part of the auras description elsewhere (history tooltip should be displayed someday).

Requirements:
R1 XML string states all relevant history of that man or woman
R2 Aura string states the effects of that aura
R3 Aura string should not contain any history
R4 Aura effect should be reproducibly derived from history

In order to derive the aura from historical background, that historical background must be stated explicitly somewhere, so that everyone (players and future editors) can reproduce the reasoning of the aura effect.
If we add the historical reasoning to the Aura string, we violate R3.
If we add the historical reasoning to the XML string

  • we violate R1 in some cases, because some auras are derived from circumstancial events, not from the main history.
  • we lose the connotation of the strings being reasoning. The history of the person can be seen as independent of the aura, not as a justification of the aura.
  • we then mix 2-3 unrelated events in that string

Example Iberian:

Along with his brother Indibil, Mandonius commanded the Iberian recruits and mercenaries that took part in the Punic Wars.
Following the fall of Indibil in battle, Mandonius led the survivors to safety.

Best attempt to merge:

Along with his brother Indibil, Mandonius commanded the Iberian recruits and mercenaries that took part in the Punic Wars. Finally the two brothers met their downfall in a rebellion against the Romans. Following the fall of Indibil in battle, Mandonius led the survivors to safety.

The last sentence seems entirely unrelated to the history but only related to the aura.

Example Macedonians:

Allied with Rome, Philip reorganized the country's internal affairs and finances, leaving as a legacy reopened mines and a new currency. Gain a slow trickle of metal.
During the First Macedonian War, Philip and his troops sacked Thermum, the religious and political centre of Aetolia

From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philip_V_of_Macedon we can see that this figurehead participated in many events: Social War, First Macedonian War, Expansion in the Aegean, Second Macedonian War and Alliance with Rome.
But the string now only picks few of them selectively and leaves our major history.

Hannibal and me sat down for five more hours to rewrite the strings to see if we can merge them, but the counterexamples remain.
Having the major history ones in the XML files and the circumstances in the JS file is also weird. If we'd do that, there would be no reason not to have all of them in the aura files.

Keeping the historical reasoning of the auras in the aura file has the advantage that we can write an actual description in the XML file that has a good history string as it ought to.


Diff which has historic background in the xml files according to the wishes of fatherbushido.

Aura effects are now listed in new lines.
Briton catafalque buffed a bit.

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elexis accepted this revision.Apr 2 2017, 10:44 PM

Added 2 more spaces, added resources so that auras always affect all 4 resources. One aura didn't mention HP buff.
Removed duplicate sparta string and renamed one of the duplicate Economic Reforms of Solon to Economic Fortune.
As mentioned above, the history referenced in the aura tooltips is not the same history as should appear in the <History> tag at some point. This one should not focus on the aura effects but can contain more complete information.

Thanks for the patch, spending so much time (about 1 week many hours per day) on finding historical references, phrasing and going through many endless discussions about the balancing with Grugnas, borg- and some others, the string proposals by Gallaecio, fatherbushido and me and even testing the things ingame with maxticatrix, siole, ffffffff, and some others, Hannibal Barca!

This revision was automatically updated to reflect the committed changes.
fatherbushido edited edge metadata.EditedApr 2 2017, 11:56 PM

Else I don't understand what was the empty diff.
Was a fast review asked by the author of the diff (I assume).
Sorry I didn't test all unit one by one. I guess that's what every accepter did.
(i forgot, I don't know if health is enough clear compared to max health)

ps/trunk/binaries/data/mods/public/simulation/data/auras/catafalques/athen_catafalque_1.json
9 ↗(On Diff #1083)

Is it meter or meters? It's just to improve my english.

ps/trunk/binaries/data/mods/public/simulation/data/auras/catafalques/athen_catafalque_2.json
5 ↗(On Diff #1083)

That s not because I did bad in another commit that we should not provide a better order.

ps/trunk/binaries/data/mods/public/simulation/data/auras/catafalques/gaul_catafalque_1.json
11 ↗(On Diff #1083)

promote 25% faster must be checked

ps/trunk/binaries/data/mods/public/simulation/data/auras/catafalques/gaul_catafalque_2.json
8 ↗(On Diff #1083)

That's where we should not try to explicitly justify things...

ps/trunk/binaries/data/mods/public/simulation/data/auras/catafalques/pers_catafalque.json
12 ↗(On Diff #1083)

I think we should open a topic about the caps at palace.

ps/trunk/binaries/data/mods/public/simulation/data/auras/catafalques/rome_catafalque_1.json
9 ↗(On Diff #1083)

Histoy is history, it's a game speaking of war. But I would not use that one.

ps/trunk/binaries/data/mods/public/simulation/data/auras/catafalques/rome_catafalque_2.json
4 ↗(On Diff #1083)

Makes perhaps more sense to work with addition.

ps/trunk/binaries/data/mods/public/simulation/data/auras/catafalques/sele_catafalque_2.json
2 ↗(On Diff #1083)

That's where reading doc is usefull. Was my raised concern.

ps/trunk/binaries/data/mods/public/simulation/data/auras/catafalques/spart_catafalque_2.json
12 ↗(On Diff #1083)

Would have merge those two things. Else you differentiate cav and also make another for heros.

ps/trunk/binaries/data/mods/public/simulation/templates/other/catafalque/mace_catafalque.xml
9 ↗(On Diff #1083)

You could have also use an aura to affect the player entity. I don't know which one is better from the performance point of view.

(Not related to that diff but a SelectionGroupName for catafalque could be nice.)

This is the version with history in xml files just in case anyone is interested.

"an 80 meter range" is grammatically correct as far as i know
spartan aura will be addressed, overlooked the fact that it affects champion spear cavalry at the moment.

This is the version with history in xml files just in case anyone is interested.

The 4th is a bit late for April fool.

"an 80 meter range" is grammatically correct as far as i know

I didn't affirm it wasn't. I just wanted to know for myself.

spartan aura will be addressed, overlooked the fact that it affects champion spear cavalry at the moment.

My comment didn't presumed that.

elexis added inline comments.Apr 8 2017, 5:24 AM
ps/trunk/binaries/data/mods/public/simulation/data/auras/catafalques/athen_catafalque_1.json
9 ↗(On Diff #1083)

Stomach says it's ok, brain not sure, couldn't find anything on the web. Fallback original reviewer, that what hannibal said in D291 and transifex if still everything failed

ps/trunk/binaries/data/mods/public/simulation/data/auras/catafalques/athen_catafalque_2.json
5 ↗(On Diff #1083)

ack. While at it also doing the same for few others. Some heroes and teambonuses got a wrong order too, but out ot scope.

ps/trunk/binaries/data/mods/public/simulation/data/auras/catafalques/gaul_catafalque_1.json
11 ↗(On Diff #1083)

You mean from a balancing pov? Technically it should work as we have a tech modifying that property. Also tested and works.

ps/trunk/binaries/data/mods/public/simulation/data/auras/catafalques/gaul_catafalque_2.json
8 ↗(On Diff #1083)

It's the other way around. First we look at history, then we look at which aura would fit to that history _and make the gameplay more interesting. In particular it's nice to not only have bonuses stacking but also drawbacks. Wasn't easy to find something about this mustache belgian at all.

ps/trunk/binaries/data/mods/public/simulation/data/auras/catafalques/pers_catafalque.json
12 ↗(On Diff #1083)
ps/trunk/binaries/data/mods/public/simulation/data/auras/catafalques/rome_catafalque_1.json
9 ↗(On Diff #1083)

Refs private discussion between Gallaecio Itms and us two. My opinion is that we shouldn't be needlessly violent but also not coneal important facts like the reason for overthrowing kings. We can change it in case we decide against the string, there are typically a number of string changes before a release and I see a lot of random tags in transifex already.

ps/trunk/binaries/data/mods/public/simulation/data/auras/catafalques/rome_catafalque_2.json
4 ↗(On Diff #1083)

Indeed, multiplying armor was stupid. Thanks for the notice.

ps/trunk/binaries/data/mods/public/simulation/data/auras/catafalques/sele_catafalque_2.json
2 ↗(On Diff #1083)
ps/trunk/binaries/data/mods/public/simulation/data/auras/catafalques/spart_catafalque_2.json
12 ↗(On Diff #1083)

We had long discussions about this with borg- and in the end I gave up on finding consensus. Still have no strong opinion on this as long as it's not becoming OP (which can easily happen when affecting spear champs). (Affecting heroes is more consistent at first sight, but those are not part of the regular army but leading figures, so not sure if it's a must have). The balancing is never final and the current one, despite the extensive discussions for a week in the lobby with the two balancing reviewers and the author, must be taken with a pinch of salt. I assume we will get a lot more feedback once released (especially in case we had a place where people could lookup the stats without playing a game).

(Also common noun here is not only technically correct but also has a some other precedents in the other aura and tech tooltips)

ps/trunk/binaries/data/mods/public/simulation/templates/other/catafalque/mace_catafalque.xml
9 ↗(On Diff #1083)

Interesting, tried that and it works. Performance difference will be neglible presumably and the advantage would be consistency with all the other tooltips. BUT we have only one rate for the player aura and we probably shouldn't change that. Thanks for the hint, would have never crossed my mind probably!

fatherbushido added inline comments.Apr 8 2017, 8:49 AM
ps/trunk/binaries/data/mods/public/simulation/data/auras/catafalques/gaul_catafalque_1.json
11 ↗(On Diff #1083)

In fact, I don't really know what that string (the current one) means (the "gameplay" part ~_~°). Something like 'requires 25% less xp to promote' (excepting my english mistakes) is less ambiguous. (Also it's not precised that the attack bonus is a melee one. I don't know if it's fixed in the last commit).

ps/trunk/binaries/data/mods/public/simulation/data/auras/catafalques/sele_catafalque_2.json
2 ↗(On Diff #1083)

yes

fatherbushido added inline comments.Apr 8 2017, 9:01 AM
ps/trunk/binaries/data/mods/public/simulation/data/auras/catafalques/gaul_catafalque_1.json
11 ↗(On Diff #1083)

(Mechanical is mainly rams and fire ships here, that's it?)
(Note also that it concerns elephants which sounds ok but I don't know if it was intended)

fatherbushido added inline comments.Apr 14 2017, 10:16 AM
ps/trunk/binaries/data/mods/public/simulation/data/auras/catafalques/gaul_catafalque_1.json
11 ↗(On Diff #1083)

up