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[gameplay] tweak champions costs
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Authored by borg- on Jun 13 2020, 10:04 PM.

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Summary

In the past alphas we had activities of champions unit much more constant than now.
Ok, it was not so good because we had a quick rush p3 + champions, that was boring, champions dominate every game.
So we had a "agressive" nerf, a little big for me. Champions are impractical now at least in "competitive games".
No reason to train champions. They are extremely expensive cost, cost, benefit is much lower than citizens units like javelins or slingers for example.
You rarely see any champions in team games now, should be a constant unit in late games (I don't remember seeing champion cavalry in my last 50 games).

The purpose of the patch is to put a cost more appropriate to champion units. Small change, making it a more practical unit, without becoming the main unit like other alpha.

  • Cost reduction by 25% maintaining a high metal cost;
  • Correct loot (elephant champion too);
  • Same cost for all champions (looks better for future patch where the values are different for champions type);
  • Make cost of mercenaries champion same than others champions giving a food cost.
  • Change cost of unit_cavalry_melee_swordsman cavalry for the same from unit_infantry_melee_swordsman (40 wood, 10 metal);
  • Correct loot for unit_infantry_melee_swordsman and unit_cavalry_melee_swordsman (4 wood , 1 metal);
  • Cleaning templates and removing unnecessary lines.

See also D2866.

Test Plan
  • If all champion units are affected by the patch.
  • test in 1v1 and 4v4 games.

Diff Detail

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badosu accepted this revision.Jul 3 2020, 1:09 PM
badosu added inline comments.
template_unit_champion_infantry.xml
13

It seems that the total cost has increased for this unit, while also having metal cost increased, is that intentional?

This revision is now accepted and ready to land.Jul 3 2020, 1:09 PM
Nescio requested changes to this revision.Jul 3 2020, 1:43 PM
Nescio added inline comments.
template_unit_champion.xml
27–30

Since template_unit_champion.xml does not have a <Cost> node, it shouldn't have resource <Loot> either, therefore please remove these lines.

template_unit_champion_infantry.xml
13

Actually the total cost has decreased: 125 + 100 + 75 = 300 (see child templates below) vs 70 + 70 + 80 = 220. So yes, I suspect this is intentional.

This revision now requires changes to proceed.Jul 3 2020, 1:43 PM
borg- updated this revision to Diff 12556.Jul 4 2020, 8:58 PM

Up new patch.

Removed unnecessary loot pointed by @Nescio
Added axemen

borg- updated this revision to Diff 12557.Jul 4 2020, 9:00 PM
Nescio added inline comments.Jul 4 2020, 9:03 PM
template_unit_champion.xml
26

Experience loot ought to be kept.
Perhaps it's better to insert it into the *_cavalry.xml, *_elephant.xml, and *_infantry.xml children?

template_unit_champion_cavalry.xml
13

Indentation
(Use two spaces, not tabs, in xml files.)

Nescio added inline comments.Jul 4 2020, 9:07 PM
template_unit_champion_infantry_axeman.xml
34–35 ↗(On Diff #12557)

Shouldn't this be the other way around?

borg- updated this revision to Diff 12558.Jul 4 2020, 9:16 PM

@Nescio check pls.

Nescio requested changes to this revision.Jul 4 2020, 9:27 PM

For maintainability and making it easier to spot mistakes, I'd recommend using op="add". I've given two in line examples, do the same for infantry.

template_unit_champion.xml
17–19

Insert this in template_unit_champion_infantry.xml.
And insert a higher number in template_unit_champion_elephant.xml.

template_unit_champion_cavalry_axeman.xml
19–24 ↗(On Diff #12558)
<Cost>
  <Resources>
    <wood op="add">10</wood>
    <metal op="add">-10</metal>
  </Resources>
</Cost>
32–35 ↗(On Diff #12558)
<Loot>
  <wood op="add">1</wood>
  <metal op="add">-1</metal>
</Loot>
template_unit_champion_cavalry_swordsman.xml
20–25
<Cost>
  <Resources>
    <wood op="add">-20</wood>
    <metal op="add">20</metal>
  </Resources>
</Cost>
33–36
<Loot>
  <wood op="add">-2</wood>
  <metal op="add">2</metal>
</Loot>
This revision now requires changes to proceed.Jul 4 2020, 9:27 PM
Nescio added a comment.Jul 4 2020, 9:34 PM

For the <xp>, how about infantry 150, cavalry 200, elephant 300?
And insert <xp op="mul">0.9</xp> in *_african.xml and <xp op="mul">1.1</xp> in *_indian.xml.

borg- updated this revision to Diff 12559.Jul 4 2020, 9:57 PM

@Nescio done.

I will keep xp190 for cavalry as it is a percentage of citizen cavalry. Yes, really elephant needs a bigger xp, thanks for find this.

Nescio added inline comments.Jul 4 2020, 10:18 PM
template_unit_champion.xml
17–19

Please remove these three lines.

template_unit_champion_cavalry.xml
32

200?

template_unit_champion_infantry.xml
11–13

How about 80, 60, 80? Champion cavalry also have a difference between metal and wood of 20.

23

<xp>150</xp>

Nescio added a comment.EditedJul 4 2020, 10:22 PM

I will keep xp190 for cavalry as it is a percentage of citizen cavalry. Yes, really elephant needs a bigger xp, thanks for find this.

Yes, citizen cavalry has about a third more experience than citizen infantry (130 vs 100), which is why I suggested 200 instead of 190 for champion cavalry (i.e. a third more than the 150 of infantry).

borg- added a comment.Jul 4 2020, 10:33 PM

I will keep xp190 for cavalry as it is a percentage of citizen cavalry. Yes, really elephant needs a bigger xp, thanks for find this.

Yes, citizen cavalry has about a third more experience than citizen infantry (130 vs 100), which is why I suggested 200 instead of 190 for champion cavalry (i.e. a third more than the 150 of infantry).

Ok, no problem, i Will change tonorrow, cant today.

template_unit_champion.xml
17–19

Oh fak i forget It haha

template_unit_champion_infantry.xml
13

Yep, all values are intencional.

template_unit_champion_infantry_axeman.xml
34–35 ↗(On Diff #12557)

No. Axeman has an original cost of wood higher than of metal compared a swordmen.

Also, I'd still favour increasing citizen training time a bit:

infantry : 10 → 12
cavalry  : 15 → 18
borg- added a comment.Jul 4 2020, 11:40 PM
This comment was removed by borg-.
borg- added a comment.Jul 5 2020, 1:46 AM
In D2816#122736, @borg- wrote:

Also, I'd still favour increasing citizen training time a bit:

infantry : 10 → 12
cavalry  : 15 → 18

Yep, i agree for infantry. Its make spam harder, but cav i prefere jeep 15 sec. Cavalry cant boom eco.

What about make its in new patch?

borg- updated this revision to Diff 12570.Jul 6 2020, 3:45 AM
borg- edited the summary of this revision. (Show Details)

Up patch.

ADD loot for champion elephant (300)
Change loot of cavalry 190 --> 200.
Remove loot xp from _unit_champion.xml, add on _champion_infantry.xml.

  • This patch changes cavalry costs to 150 food + 80 wood + 100 metal and infantry costs to 70 food + 70 wood + 80 metal, i.e. cavalry have a difference between wood and metal of 20, infantry of 10, which seems a bit inconsistent. Perhaps tweak the latter to 80 + 60 + 80?
  • The cavalry axeman has +10 wood and −10 metal, but the infantry axeman +20, −20. Is that intentional?
  • The cavalry swordsman has −20 wood and +20 metal, but the infantry swordsman −10, +10. Is that intentional?
template_unit_champion_elephant.xml
30 ↗(On Diff #12570)

<wood>0</wood> can be removed now. Also under <Loot>.

borg- added a comment.EditedJul 6 2020, 12:54 PM
  • This patch changes cavalry costs to 150 food + 80 wood + 100 metal and infantry costs to 70 food + 70 wood + 80 metal, i.e. cavalry have a difference between wood and metal of 20, infantry of 10, which seems a bit inconsistent. Perhaps tweak the latter to 80 + 60 + 80?
  • The cavalry axeman has +10 wood and −10 metal, but the infantry axeman +20, −20. Is that intentional?
  • The cavalry swordsman has −20 wood and +20 metal, but the infantry swordsman −10, +10. Is that intentional?

Oh my bad about axeman, is a 2 for cav and 1 inf.

Nescio added a comment.Jul 6 2020, 1:01 PM

Oh meu nas about amexman, os a 2 for cav and 1 inf

Could you rephrase that in proper English? I have no idea what it means exactly.

Nescio added a comment.Jul 6 2020, 1:33 PM

Also, currently champion elephants have the same training time as cavalry (30), but they're far more powerful. Should that be changed too (e.g. to 36)?

borg- added a comment.EditedJul 6 2020, 1:40 PM

Also, currently champion elephants have the same training time as cavalry (30), but they're far more powerful. Should that be changed too (e.g. to 36)?

Yes, i agree, seems fair.

borg- updated this revision to Diff 12574.EditedJul 7 2020, 1:08 AM

Up patch.

Remove unnecessary wood loot of champion_elephant.xml;
Correct cost/loot of axeman;
Increase champion elephant training time 30 --> 36;
Change infantry cost 70food 70wood 80metal -->> 80food 60wood 80metal;
I am removing the changes in infantry and cavalry training time. D2866 if accepted, it should change the values of citizens, so it is possible that I will have to change the value of champions soon again, so I will keep it as it is for now.

Unfortunately I still don't understand why cavalry axemen and swordsmen have 20 but infantry only 10. Could you explain your reasoning in more detail?
Furthermore, whilst I agree with the new resource totals (infantry, cavalry, elephant 220, 330, 500 instead of 300, 450, 500), how did you arrive at the individual resource numbers?

I am removing the changes in infantry and cavalry training time. D2866 if accepted, it should change the values of citizens, so it is possible that I will have to change the value of champions soon again, so I will keep it as it is for now.

You're right, it's better to do all training times in a single place.

template_unit_champion_infantry.xml
25–27

8 + 6 + 8

borg- added a comment.Jul 7 2020, 12:15 PM

Unfortunately I still don't understand why cavalry axemen and swordsmen have 20 but infantry only 10. Could you explain your reasoning in more detail?

Cavalry sword Citizen cost +gold and -wood than infantry sword. So why not champ too?

Cavalry sword Citizen cost +gold and -wood than infantry sword. So why not champ too?

You're right, it does, I just checked:

basic cavalry axeman     : 40 wood, 10 metal
basic infantry axeman    : 40 wood, 10 metal
basic cavalry spearman   : 50 wood, 0 metal
basic infantry spearman  : 50 wood, 0 metal
basic cavalry swordsman  : 30 wood, 20 metal
basic infantry swordsman : 40 wood, 10 metal

The last one looks inconsistent, though. Maybe something for a future patch? Or fix it here.

borg- added a comment.Jul 7 2020, 12:49 PM

basic cavalry axeman : 40 wood, 10 metal
basic infantry axeman : 40 wood, 10 metal
basic cavalry spearman : 50 wood, 0 metal
basic infantry spearman : 50 wood, 0 metal
basic cavalry swordsman : 30 wood, 20 metal
basic infantry swordsman : 40 wood, 10 metal

The last one looks inconsistent, though. Maybe something for a future patch? Or fix it here.

You say about axemen?

You say about axemen?

No, I mean template_unit_infantry_melee_swordsman.xml ought to cost 30 wood and 20 metal, same as its cavalry counterpart.
And champion axemen −10 wood, +10 metal, champion swordsmen −20 wood, +20 metal, both for infantry and cavalry. At least that would be consistent across the board.

borg- added a comment.EditedJul 7 2020, 1:17 PM

You say about axemen?

No, I mean template_unit_infantry_melee_swordsman.xml ought to cost 30 wood and 20 metal, same as its cavalry counterpart.
And champion axemen −10 wood, +10 metal, champion swordsmen −20 wood, +20 metal, both for infantry and cavalry. At least that would be consistent across the board.

I think cavalry with 40w 10m be better. Infantry with 30w 20m can be a problem early game for rome/iber.

I will keep axeman/sword cav with -20/+20 and axemen/sword inf -15+15. Seems fair since citizens need some metal. 5/1 =20% , 100 + 20% = 120, same logic apply to inf too

borg- added a comment.Jul 7 2020, 5:56 PM
This comment was removed by borg-.
borg- updated this revision to Diff 12582.EditedJul 8 2020, 12:17 AM

Citizen cavalry sword 30 wood 20 metal --> 40 wood 10 metal, same to loot. Same to infantry sword.
Champion cavalry axemen/sword same cost/loot. Cost: -20wood +20metal (than other champions), same to loot.
Champion Infantry axemen/sword same cost/loot. Cost: -15wwood +15metal (than other champions), same to loot.

Its just that it costs less wood and more metal, like citizen units.

borg- updated this revision to Diff 12583.Jul 8 2020, 12:29 AM
borg- updated this revision to Diff 12584.Jul 8 2020, 12:46 AM
borg- added a comment.Jul 8 2020, 2:09 PM

@Nescio seems correct?

Nescio added a comment.Jul 8 2020, 9:47 PM

Infantry with 30w 20m can be a problem early game for rome/iber.

So swordsmen costing 30 wood + 20 metal is problematic, but slingers costing 20 wood + 30 stone is not?

Nescio added inline comments.Jul 8 2020, 9:49 PM
template_unit_cavalry_melee_swordsman.xml
28–29 ↗(On Diff #12584)

Good.

template_unit_champion_infantry_axeman.xml
34–35 ↗(On Diff #12584)

This will cause errors. Loot is an integer, not a decimal. Convert the 1.5 to 2. Also below.

template_unit_infantry_melee_swordsman.xml
28 ↗(On Diff #12584)

Good.

borg- added a comment.Jul 9 2020, 12:10 AM

Infantry with 30w 20m can be a problem early game for rome/iber.

So swordsmen costing 30 wood + 20 metal is problematic, but slingers costing 20 wood + 30 stone is not?

Yes. Slinger move faster, so collects resources faster.
Most p1 techs cost metal, no stone.
Slinger is a much better unit than swordsman in the current balance, it is much more compensatory collecting stone for training slinger than metal for swordmen.

borg- updated this revision to Diff 12593.Jul 9 2020, 12:17 AM

Correct loot (2) pointed by @Nescio

borg- edited the summary of this revision. (Show Details)Jul 9 2020, 12:18 AM

This patch gives axemen, macemen, and swordsmen the same costs. I'm not sure that's a good thing. On the other hand, there are no cost differences between archers, javelineers, pikemen, and spearmen either. We might go one step further and give all champions the same cost, regardless whether they're swordsmen or spearmen or whatever.
Ideally I'd like to see each unit type having a different cost, but that's something beyond the scope of this patch.

borg- added a comment.Jul 12 2020, 7:34 PM

This patch gives axemen, macemen, and swordsmen the same costs. I'm not sure that's a good thing. On the other hand, there are no cost differences between archers, javelineers, pikemen, and spearmen either. We might go one step further and give all champions the same cost, regardless whether they're swordsmen or spearmen or whatever.
Ideally I'd like to see each unit type having a different cost, but that's something beyond the scope of this patch.

Yes, i agree that we should give different values, but in another patch it would be better. The main focus of this patch and the lower overall cost of the champions, so that they are playable in alpha 24.

If it is for better future patches, I can give the champions all at the same cost. What do you think @Nescio @wraitii?

That might be better, yes. At least it means fewer lines in this patch.

borg- edited the summary of this revision. (Show Details)Jul 13 2020, 4:13 AM
borg- updated this revision to Diff 12650.Jul 13 2020, 4:18 AM

Up patch with suggestion by @Nescio (same cost for all champions).

Nescio accepted this revision.Jul 13 2020, 6:23 PM
  • The consensus appears to be champions are currently too expensive; this patch addresses that.
  • The proposed total costs seem reasonable: elephants (500) about 50% more than cavalry (330), cavalry 50% more than infantry (220).
  • The loot changes were long overdue and improve consistency.
  • The patch is complete and correct.
This revision is now accepted and ready to land.Jul 13 2020, 6:23 PM
wraitii updated this revision to Diff 12692.Jul 15 2020, 2:31 PM

Reupload with proper context for easier review

wraitii accepted this revision.Jul 15 2020, 2:34 PM

I'm OK with a common cost for now, our units are not very well differentiated anyways :/

This appears correct.
Planning to commit in a few days.

Nescio accepted this revision.Jul 15 2020, 2:36 PM
This revision was automatically updated to reflect the committed changes.