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[gameplay] introduce centre tech progression
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Authored by Nescio on Jul 2 2020, 4:18 PM.

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Balancing
Summary

This patch weakens civic centres (including colonies and crannogs) at game start:

  • (ungarrisoned) default arrow count from 3 to 0
  • (ungarrisoned) default <Capturable/RegenRate> from 5 to 0.5

and introduces three cheap technologies, one for each phase, that each give:

  • +1 default arrow count;
  • +5 capture points regeneration rate (i.e. countering the attack strength of one enemy champion);

This makes capturing centres easier, especially in the village phase, though a bit harder when all three technologies are researched.
The idea is this patch can work both with or without D2845.

Test Plan

Check for mistakes and omissions. Playtest a few games. Agree with the concept and the proposed values.

Event Timeline

Nescio created this revision.Jul 2 2020, 4:18 PM
Owners added a subscriber: Restricted Owners Package.Jul 2 2020, 4:18 PM
Vulcan added a comment.Jul 2 2020, 4:23 PM

Successful build - Chance fights ever on the side of the prudent.

Link to build: https://jenkins.wildfiregames.com/job/docker-differential/2566/display/redirect

Does it affect the regeneration rate of all buildings ?

Nescio added a comment.Jul 2 2020, 6:23 PM

Does it affect the regeneration rate of all buildings ?

No, not all structures, only centres, colonies, and crannogs are affected by these technologies:
"affects": ["CivilCentre"],

Does it affect the regeneration rate of all buildings ?

No, not all structures, only centres, colonies, and crannogs are affected by these technologies:
"affects": ["CivilCentre"],

It should if it is intended as a solution for the scaling problem in D2845 (as the regenRate increase given by phasing affects all buildings). If it does and these technologies are balanced it could introduce more strategy for the capture mechanic

Nescio added a comment.Jul 2 2020, 7:06 PM

It should if it is intended as a solution for the scaling problem in D2845 (as the regenRate increase given by phasing affects all buildings). If it does and these technologies are balanced it could introduce more strategy for the capture mechanic

No, this patch changes different stats and is independent from D2845:

  • "Capturable/RegenRate" (here) is the permanent (ungarrisoned) recovery rate of a structure.
  • "Capturable/GarrisonRegenRate" (there) is the recovery rate per garrisoned unit.

Basically D2845, D2847, and this (D2854) are three independent patches that are only indirectly related. All three could be tried out, reviewed, and committed separately from each other. Each I consider an improment on its own, but they also work nicely together.

Angen added a subscriber: Angen.Jul 10 2020, 3:50 PM
Nescio removed a reviewer: Restricted Owners Package.Aug 15 2020, 9:07 PM
borg- added a subscriber: borg-.EditedJan 6 2021, 10:59 PM

If balanced they add more strategies.

I would change some values:

  • Decrease the cc vision range so that rush will be harder to defend without tech.
  • Change cost tech to only food, like 150f/300f/450f. Resources are always a difficult choice at the beginning of the game, especially wood. With current values I don't think players will choose techs, even if necessary.
  • ResearchTime 20/30/40 or 15/30/60? First phase must be faster so as not to lose the economy.
  • +2 arrow, +3 regen +5 vision range? A cc full of citizen soldiers is not converted by champion units. Adding +10 make it worse.
Nescio added a comment.Jan 7 2021, 1:22 PM

Thank you for the feedback!

Decrease the cc vision range so that rush will be harder to defend without tech.

Centres currently have a vision range of 90 (infantry has 80, cavalry 92, elephants 100). In my opinion entities ought to have a vision range at least as large as their maximum attack range. However, that's no longer the case for centres, because the former is still calculated from the footprint centre, whereas the latter is now calculated from the circle around their obstruction:


When taking elevation bonuses into account the situation becomes even worse. If anything, centres should have a higher vision range by default.
Perhaps the vision range increases ought to be removed from these technologies?

Change cost tech to only food, like 150f/300f/450f. Resources are always a difficult choice at the beginning of the game, especially wood. With current values I don't think players will choose techs, even if necessary.

How about keeping the food as is, but replacing the wood with metal?

ResearchTime 20/30/40 or 15/30/60? First phase must be faster so as not to lose the economy.

Currently all village phase technologies have a research time of 40 s, though (the only exception is advancing to town phase, at 30 s).

+2 arrow, +3 regen +5 vision range?

Per technology? Adding one default arrow is already quite powerful, two might make it too effective.

A cc full of citizen soldiers is not converted by champion units.

That's largely because the town and city phases make it significantly easier to defend your structures; in the village phase, each garrisoned unit counters one champion, in the city phase four. See D2845 for that.

Adding +10 make it worse.

To be clear, <RegenRate> and <GarrisonRegenRate> are two different things, the latter is what makes it so hard to capture garrisoned structures (these technologies don't affect that), the former is how quickly empty structures recover their capture points (which is what these technologies do). For comparison:

with this patch, the civic centre <RegenRate> is:
0.5 at game start
5.5 with one guard technology
10.5 with two guard technologies
15.5 with three guard technologies
without this patch, it's always 10.
borg- added a comment.EditedJan 7 2021, 1:50 PM

Perhaps the vision range increases ought to be removed from these technologies?

Without the standard reduction, yes, it should be removed from the patch.
We need a other atribute to keep this techs interesting.

How about keeping the food as is, but replacing the wood with metal?

If keep 150f/300f/450f and a small amount of metal like 50/100/150 I can agree.

Currently all village phase technologies have a research time of 40 s, though (the only exception is advancing to town phase, at 30 s).

Well, archery tradition is now at the center, so I can agree with these values.

Per technology? Adding one default arrow is already quite powerful, two might make it too effective.

Ok.

To be clear, <RegenRate> and <GarrisonRegenRate> are two different things, the latter is what makes it so hard to capture garrisoned structures (these technologies don't affect that), the former is how quickly empty structures recover their capture points (which is what these technologies do). For comparison:

with this patch, the civic centre <RegenRate> is:
0.5 at game start
5.5 with one guard technology
10.5 with two guard technologies
15.5 with three guard technologies
without this patch, it's always 10.

You are right, my bad, sorry. Can i agree with those values.

Nescio updated this revision to Diff 15042.Jan 7 2021, 2:29 PM
Nescio edited the summary of this revision. (Show Details)
  • rebased
  • remove vision range increases
  • alter costs to values proposed by @borg-
Vulcan added a comment.Jan 7 2021, 2:34 PM

Build is green

builderr-debug-macos.txt
ld: warning: text-based stub file /System/Library/Frameworks//CoreAudio.framework/CoreAudio.tbd and library file /System/Library/Frameworks//CoreAudio.framework/CoreAudio are out of sync. Falling back to library file for linking.
ld: warning: text-based stub file /System/Library/Frameworks//AudioToolbox.framework/AudioToolbox.tbd and library file /System/Library/Frameworks//AudioToolbox.framework/AudioToolbox are out of sync. Falling back to library file for linking.
ld: warning: text-based stub file /System/Library/Frameworks//ForceFeedback.framework/ForceFeedback.tbd and library file /System/Library/Frameworks//ForceFeedback.framework/ForceFeedback are out of sync. Falling back to library file for linking.
ld: warning: text-based stub file /System/Library/Frameworks//CoreVideo.framework/CoreVideo.tbd and library file /System/Library/Frameworks//CoreVideo.framework/CoreVideo are out of sync. Falling back to library file for linking.
ld: warning: text-based stu

See https://jenkins.wildfiregames.com/job/macos-differential/2710/display/redirect for more details.

borg- added a comment.EditedJan 7 2021, 2:59 PM

Better now, but still not interesting enough to research (I would not research), we need some more attribute.

Maybe increase attack range can be very interesting.

Nescio added a comment.Jan 7 2021, 4:27 PM

You wouldn't? I would, maybe not immediately, but when under attack, the extra arrows can really make a difference.
A consequence of this patch is that centres are less dangerous at game start, making early raids a bit more effective.

borg- added a comment.Jan 7 2021, 4:37 PM

You wouldn't? I would, maybe not immediately, but when under attack, the extra arrows can really make a difference.
A consequence of this patch is that centres are less dangerous at game start, making early raids a bit more effective.

Patch makes the early attack more effective but you are still able to shoot many arrows if garrisoned. increasing the range can give you advantages in defending against harassment against buildings or your farms. Yes, I would not research, not for multiplayer games, but with a range attack yes, I would research against rush cvilizations.

Nescio added a comment.Jan 7 2021, 4:48 PM

Due to the new way attack ranges are calculated, centres (and fortresses) can already shoot much farther than in A23. I'm not sure a technology increasing it by even more is a good idea.

borg- added a comment.EditedJan 7 2021, 4:58 PM

We can decrease the number of garrisoned arrows of cc, as it is not a defense buildingn. Can also reduce the range to 70 for centers, towers and fortresses, since it was proposed in another patch, 70 for archers, what do you think?

Nescio added a comment.Jan 7 2021, 7:27 PM

We can decrease the number of garrisoned arrows of cc,

Do you mean the <DefaultArrowCount> (which this patch changes from 3 to 0), the <GarrisonArrowMultiplier> (arrows per garrisoned soldier), or the <MaxArrowCount>?

as it is not a defense buildingn.

Actually civic centres are currently defensive structures.

Can also reduce the range to 70 for centers, towers and fortresses, since it was proposed in another patch, 70 for archers, what do you think?

Sure, if and when archers have their range reduced to 70, then the same could be done for structures. However, that shouldn't be done here in this patch. Moreover, a change from 72 to 70 is not really that signicant. Compared to A23, centres in A24 have effectively between +20 and +30 maximum range, due to the different way attack range is calculated, which was necessary to prevent archers from destroying structures with the same range.

Nescio added a comment.Jan 7 2021, 7:35 PM

Anyway, back to this patch: the first question to be asked is whether it's a good idea to weaken civic centres at game start (which is what this patch does).
I agree the proposed technologies are not the most important to research, training more javelineers or building towers is more effective in early game; however, they're not entirely useless either, and there are situation conceivable where researching them would be a smart choice; maybe not in every match, but that doesn't matter (cf. attack_soldiers_will.json or pop_wonder.json).

Nescio edited the summary of this revision. (Show Details)Jan 7 2021, 7:38 PM
Nescio removed a subscriber: Restricted Owners Package.
borg- added a comment.Jan 7 2021, 8:34 PM

Do you mean the <DefaultArrowCount> (which this patch changes from 3 to 0), the <GarrisonArrowMultiplier> (arrows per garrisoned soldier), or the <MaxArrowCount>?

MaxArrowCount.

Actually civic centres are currently defensive structures.

Yes, but not as a fortress or towers for example.

Can also reduce the range to 70 for centers, towers and fortresses, since it was proposed in another patch, 70 for archers, what do you think?

Sure, if and when archers have their range reduced to 70, then the same could be done for structures. However, that shouldn't be done here in this patch. Moreover, a change from 72 to 70 is not really that signicant. Compared to A23, centres in A24 have effectively between +20 and +30 maximum range, due to the different way attack range is calculated, which was necessary to prevent archers from destroying structures with the same range.

+20 or +30? So we have a serious problem here.

Nescio added a comment.Jan 7 2021, 8:45 PM

+20 or +30? So we have a serious problem here.

It's a necessary to compensate for their footprints; the exact number depends on the obstruction size, e.g. the rome centre is 37×37, which works out to +26.2, and gaul centre is 25×25, which works out to +17.7.
Actually A23 had the problem (structure attack ranges were too low). But yeah, as a consequence, raiding is harder in A24.