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[gameplay] improve melee units
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Authored by borg- on Jul 22 2020, 2:37 AM.

Details

Summary

Currently, melee units are weak compared to ranged units. The pathfinder is still problematic and ranged units have advantages with that. Melee units do not have the distance and pathfinder in your favor, so it seems fair that they have less xp requirements for promotion. This should improve the melee units without having to change other attributes.

  • Ranged unit requires +25% promotion experience.

D1977 is very important and need be committed.

Test Plan

Check mistakes.
Test on the map editor fights like 30 melee units vs 30 ranged units (cavalry and infantry) before and after the patch.

Diff Detail

Repository
rP 0 A.D. Public Repository
Lint
Automatic diff as part of commit; lint not applicable.
Unit
Automatic diff as part of commit; unit tests not applicable.

Event Timeline

borg- created this revision.Jul 22 2020, 2:37 AM
borg- added a comment.Jul 22 2020, 3:10 AM

@Nescio I'm not sure if this file was added, can you help me with that?

Stan added a subscriber: Stan.Jul 22 2020, 9:57 AM

You should generate that file from the root of the svn, not the folder. And for some reason it's marked as modified instead of added.

It seems better to do this through tech.

Why exactly? In this case setting it the generic templates would be a valid approach too. I can see arguments for and against both options. I'm not saying this must be done differently, but I'd like you to explain your reasoning.

Melee units do not have the distance and pathfinder in your favor, so it seems fair that they have less xp requirements for promotion.

Instead of lowering the promotion experience of melee soldiers, have you considered keeping them as is, but increasing the promotion experience of ranged soldiers instead (by e.g. 25% or 50%)?

Currently, melee units are weak compared to ranged units.

Yes, there are vast differences in attack damage, e.g. javelineers inflict 12.8+ damage per second, pikemen only 2+, i.e. more than a factor six difference. Units that inflict more damage kill enemies more quickly, thus gaining experience and promoting more quickly.
While your patch does not make things worse, it does not really solve the real issue.
The proper solution would be addressing the damage per second values of various units types.

melee_promotion.json
3 ↗(On Diff #12848)

"Melee Soldiers −20% promotion experience."
See the style guide and mind the minus sign.

7 ↗(On Diff #12848)

"Melee" → "Melee Soldier"

borg- updated this revision to Diff 12868.Jul 23 2020, 4:44 AM
borg- edited the summary of this revision. (Show Details)
borg- updated this revision to Diff 12869.Jul 23 2020, 4:46 AM
borg- edited the summary of this revision. (Show Details)

Up. Change ranged units make more sense not affecting units like mace_champion and dog.

borg- added a comment.Jul 23 2020, 4:54 AM

Why exactly? In this case setting it the generic templates would be a valid approach too. I can see arguments for and against both options. I'm not saying this must be done differently, but I'd like you to explain your reasoning.

Makes more sense for future units added and new templates like camels or chariots. Also keeps the templates cleaner.

Instead of lowering the promotion experience of melee soldiers, have you considered keeping them as is, but increasing the promotion experience of ranged soldiers instead (by e.g. 25% or 50%)?

Yes, this is better, for sure.

Yes, there are vast differences in attack damage, e.g. javelineers inflict 12.8+ damage per second, pikemen only 2+, i.e. more than a factor six difference. Units that inflict more damage kill enemies more quickly, thus gaining experience and promoting more quickly.
While your patch does not make things worse, it does not really solve the real issue.
The proper solution would be addressing the damage per second values of various units types.

Obviously this patch does not solve all the balancing problems, but it makes it a little fairer for melee units. Ranged units currently can abuse of pathfinder, formation, etc.
The tests I did, the melee units seem to be around 10% more efficient with patch. This seems to me a fair value.

promotion_ranged.jsonsoldier_ranged_experience.json

Makes more sense for future units added and new templates like camels or chariots. Also keeps the templates cleaner.

Whilst it means changing fewer lines and fewer files involved, I do wonder whether it wouldn't be better to set different values in each soldier type template. ‘One value fits all’ does not really seem very appropiate in this case. If e.g. +25% is suitable for slingers, then archers probably need less and javelineers more. Likewise, swordsmen > spearmen > pikemen.

promotion_ranged.json
3 ↗(On Diff #12869)

"Ranged Soldiers −20% promotion experience."
See the style guide and mind the minus sign.

7 ↗(On Diff #12869)

"Ranged" → "Ranged Soldier"

borg- added a comment.Jul 23 2020, 3:34 PM

Whilst it means changing fewer lines and fewer files involved, I do wonder whether it wouldn't be better to set different values in each soldier type template. ‘One value fits all’ does not really seem very appropiate in this case. If e.g. +25% is suitable for slingers, then archers probably need less and javelineers more. Likewise, swordsmen > spearmen > pikemen.

I don't think it is better to make different values per unit. A balanced patch of the units or counter system would be enough to remove the advantages and disadvantages of the units.
This patch is not intended to solve serious balancing problems, just to make things more fair.
Melee units have difficulty positioning to attack, they spend a lot of time looking for units to hit, while ranged units get a constant attack.
Ranged units can be in between of buildings, while melee units have problems in reaching them, due to pathfinder problems.
So it seems fair that ranged units have an increase in xp needed for promotion.

borg- updated this revision to Diff 12882.Jul 24 2020, 2:39 AM
borg- updated this revision to Diff 12883.Jul 24 2020, 3:12 AM
Nescio added inline comments.Jul 24 2020, 9:10 AM
promotion_ranged.json
3 ↗(On Diff #12869)

"Ranged Soldiers +25% promotion experience."

soldier_ranged_experience.json
3 ↗(On Diff #12883)

Replace the minus with a plus (my mistake, sorry).

borg- updated this revision to Diff 12896.Jul 24 2020, 11:53 PM
borg- edited the summary of this revision. (Show Details)
borg- added a subscriber: badosu.Aug 2 2020, 3:08 PM
promotion_ranged.json
3 ↗(On Diff #12869)

25% no?

genava55 accepted this revision.Aug 4 2020, 9:59 AM
genava55 added a subscriber: genava55.

Increasing the experience threshold of the ranged units is a good idea.

This revision is now accepted and ready to land.Aug 4 2020, 9:59 AM

I'm kind of surprised that this change alone is sufficient to rebalance ranged vs melee units?

Nescio added a comment.Aug 4 2020, 3:02 PM

It does not solve the real issue, it just masks it.

borg- added a comment.Aug 4 2020, 3:04 PM

It does not solve the real issue, it just masks it.

No, this is a good step but some small changes still need to be made.

borg- added a comment.Aug 4 2020, 3:06 PM

It does not solve the real issue, it just masks it.

Masks is not the right term. The patch does not try to solve all balancing problems, just more fair for melee units.

The idea of patch by @Feldfeld

Nescio added a comment.Aug 4 2020, 3:18 PM

To be clear, while I dislike the approach, I'm not opposed to seeing this patch implemented, if others really want it. It does not make things worse and is a small and simple change, at least for the short term.
However, the proper solution would be balancing the health, armour, and attack stats (most importantly, damage per second) of each individual unit type, and then give each appropiate cost and experience values based on that. That's a lot more work, though, and probably needs several patches and plenty of play-testing.

The idea of patch by @Feldfeld

Then credit him in the summary.

borg- added a comment.Aug 4 2020, 3:23 PM

To be clear, while I dislike the approach, I'm not opposed to seeing this patch implemented, if others really want it. It does not make things worse and is a small and simple change, at least for the short term.
However, the proper solution would be balancing the health, armour, and attack stats (most importantly, damage per second) of each individual unit type, and then give each appropiate cost and experience values based on that. That's a lot more work, though, and probably needs several patches and plenty of play-testing.

Yes, these changes will be made soon.
As I said before, ranged units have distance and a still problematic pathfinder in your favor. All ranged units can attack at the same time while melee cannot.
Regardless of future balance changes, I still think that ranged units need to take longer to promote.
 

wraitii accepted this revision.Aug 5 2020, 11:28 AM

I think this is acceptable as a first diff - I'll clarify in the commit message that this is merely one step forward.

I agree with previous comments about not actually solving the issue, however given melee units are just meat shield for most part and will be for the foreseeable future a player relying mostly on ranged units can snowball out of control after a few good engagements, this patch helps with that a bit.

badosu accepted this revision.Aug 8 2020, 4:20 PM
This revision was automatically updated to reflect the committed changes.
Owners added a subscriber: Restricted Owners Package.Sep 2 2020, 9:12 AM