I'm not sure why we are showing entities that cannot be trained. One would think those things being in other/ (maybe another directory would also be a good idea, but I digress) should make it obvious that it isn't a common entity for that civ, but something special that shouldn't show up in that way leaving players to wonder how they can train that. I'd be for not showing those under the standard civ selection, for the same reason we don't show the P-51 there either (though players are much more likely to actually own those in normal game modes).

(agree with leper)

so people will play capture the relic gamemode as often as training fighterplanes?
I think the opposite is the case, so they will need a place where tolookup these things

We could show a string that it's only placed in Capture The Relic gamemode.

1. Once we have it in the game, people want to lookup these things.
2. Once people see it, they will want to experience the gamemode .

(With victory condition combining the gamemode will also be played more often)

In D294#11662, @elexis wrote:

so people will play capture the relic gamemode as often as training fighterplanes?

People use cheats predominantly in single player. If you compare the number of downloads of the latest release for a few platforms with the distinct number of players in the lobby since then you will notice that one dwarfs the other completely.

In D294#11664, @elexis wrote:

We could show a string that it's only placed in Capture The Relic gamemode.

Then why not show it elsewhere? Or get the unit display thing included, which would allow players to actually look those things up? Or add a few gamemodes to the tutorials to get players started?

1. Once we have it in the game, people want to lookup these things.

That also applies to the plane.

2. Once people see it, they will want to experience the gamemode .

Release announcment, manual, a loading screen tip? (Hint: The latter sounds like a great idea.)

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In D294#11665, @leper wrote:

In D294#11662, @elexis wrote:

so people will play capture the relic gamemode as often as training fighterplanes?

one number dwarfs the other completely

I got 70k lobby accounts in the a21 lobby logs iirc

In D294#11664, @elexis wrote:

We could show a string that it's only placed in Capture The Relic gamemode.
Then why not show it elsewhere?

Where? It's better to tell people how they should implement things to accomplish the requirements instead of just rejecting

Or get the unit display thing included, which would allow players to actually look those things up?

So that doesn't have the issue of displaying only trainable units + 1 that isn't trainable?
Also last time I checked, the unit info thing only displayed units one would click on in the tech tree, but perhaps s0600204 or fatherbushido recall more

Or add a few gamemodes to the tutorials to get players started?

Agree that we need more focus on gameplay content like maps, reviews of tutorial patches or design on campaign interface patches for example

1. Once we have it in the game, people want to lookup these things.

That also applies to the plane.

2. Once people see it, they will want to experience the gamemode .

Release announcment, manual, a loading screen tip? (Hint: The latter sounds like a great idea.)

The use case is fhe following:

1. One tries the relic gamemode for the first time
2. Observation that it is important to figure out what those relics do, how they affect the player and enemy.

While conquest is still the most prevalent gamemode, the regicide gamemode for example is very prevalent too for example.
The effect of the catafalque auras are is equally important as the effect of hero auras and researchable technologies.
There are 22 bonuses, players should not have to start a game with random 8 of 12 them, look them up on the map to compare them.

3. Wanting to compare them after the game before playing the next game, studying the exact differences becoming familiar with the effects equally to becoming familiar with the stats and effects of the trainable units which determine the match
4. Therefore do not launch a game nor start a replay, but click through the menu and either arrive at that ancient broken outdated incomprehensive civ info thing or the place where we can lookup all other entity stats

Existence in the game is indeed shared by the mustang and the relic, but the latter will be played in thousands and thousands of games, but I don't think the fighter plane was used in one actual game, nor do I think that it is realistic that we need to compare the statistics outside of a game to prepare for the next match. It could be shown somewhere if you have an idea, but the comparation doesn't hold IMO.

Release announcement -> I think relic gamemode is likely going to end up as the main feature of alpha 22 unless anyone has some better game content to contribute this release. Aura visualization would be nice second candidate, but that's not directly gameplay content.
Don't forget to mention the trailer which might even be done with cinematic atlas controls if some outdated branch that already displayed paths and was able to change them with hotkeys will receive click event handling.
Loading screen tooltip is a nice addition, probably a must have too, but won't suffice with studying the 12 different relics in detail.

I agree though that it might be confused with a trainable entity.

I'd rather add a string to the description stating that it is spawned in capture the relic gamemode just below the title.
We could also move vertically to the bottom of that panel to separate it visually from the rest.

In D294#11669, @elexis wrote:

In D294#11665, @leper wrote:

In D294#11662, @elexis wrote:

so people will play capture the relic gamemode as often as training fighterplanes?

one number dwarfs the other completely

I got 70k lobby accounts in the a21 lobby logs iirc

Active players, not just registered. Still holds, we might just have to adjust the time frame we use slightly.

In D294#11664, @elexis wrote:

We could show a string that it's only placed in Capture The Relic gamemode.
Then why not show it elsewhere?

Where? It's better to tell people how they should implement things to accomplish the requirements instead of just rejecting

How'd I know? "The requirements" being we have something now, we should do something, this is something, therefore we must do this?

Of course we can shove everything into the few things we do already have, regardless whether they fit there at all. That always works out great.

Or get the unit display thing included, which would allow players to actually look those things up?

So that doesn't have the issue of displaying only trainable units + 1 that isn't trainable?
Also last time I checked, the unit info thing only displayed units one would click on in the tech tree, but perhaps s0600204 or fatherbushido recall more

One can extend that to link units with each other, look at all units, etc. (Similar to (and arguably inspired by) the AoM in-game encyclopedia.)

The use case is fhe following:

1. One tries the relic gamemode for the first time
2. Observation that it is important to figure out what those relics do, how they affect the player and enemy.

They let you win, you can look up which one you got once you did that. You shouldn't even know which ones are actually placed if you haven't found them yet.

While conquest is still the most prevalent gamemode, the regicide gamemode for example is very prevalent too for example.

Judging what people play by looking at lobby games results in a very biased view.

The effect of the catafalque auras are is equally important as the effect of hero auras and researchable technologies.
There are 22 bonuses, players should not have to start a game with random 8 of 12 them, look them up on the map to compare them.

If there are that many, maybe we should stop adding more and start removing more? If the only solution to pointless complexity is adding things to places where they don't strictly belong we are surely looking into a very bright future (insert obligatory 1000 suns reference here).

3. Wanting to compare them after the game before playing the next game, studying the exact differences becoming familiar with the effects equally to becoming familiar with the stats and effects of the trainable units which determine the match

Unit info thingy, which should be accessible from the same submenu as the structree, and possibly even linked with each other.

4. Therefore do not launch a game nor start a replay, but click through the menu and either arrive at that ancient broken outdated incomprehensive civ info thing or the place where we can lookup all other entity stats

It's not broken, it lists everything a user can actually build or train. We also don't list any of the special buildings present in a few scenario and skirmish maps there, so why should this new thing be special?

Existence in the game is indeed shared by the mustang and the relic, but the latter will be played in thousands and thousands of games, but I don't think the fighter plane was used in one actual game, nor do I think that it is realistic that we need to compare the statistics outside of a game to prepare for the next match.

I'll say it again but ignoring the single player aspect and players using cheats is a very biased view. I'm not saying that nobody will pla with relics, but we also don't have information about the single waves in invasion style maps in the struct tree (those could be a civ too).

Release announcement -> I think relic gamemode is likely going to end up as the main feature of alpha 22 unless anyone has some better game content to contribute this release. Aura visualization would be nice second candidate, but that's not directly gameplay content.
Don't forget to mention the trailer which might even be done with cinematic atlas controls if some outdated branch that already displayed paths and was able to change them with hotkeys will receive click event handling.
Loading screen tooltip is a nice addition, probably a must have too, but won't suffice with studying the 12 different relics in detail.

Then don't have 12 relics, or add a few of them, or let players read tooltips, or let them read that info in the unit display thing, or just shove them into the hotkey section of the manual since people can assign hotkeys to them, so it surely must fit there.

TL;DR: This is a nice hammer, so this must be a nail.

In D294#24751, @s0600204 wrote:

2. We have had a chance to discuss alternate approaches to comparative display of catafalques (ie. F120455)

Why didn't I see this image until now? Can't see it in irclogs nor on this page

In D294#24930, @elexis wrote:

Why didn't I see this image until now? Can't see it in irclogs nor on this page

Is such an approach more desirable? Is F120455 a better hammer/spanner/other miscellaneous tool for this task?

If it is, I'll create a revision for it, and close this one.

Or if someone can suggest a better approach...?

Might want to ask the art department on the public and/or staff forums.

(Notice there might be different unit portraits sometime, but then the civ icons could be replaced or combined with those.)

In D294#29869, @elexis wrote:

Might want to ask the art department on the public and/or staff forums.

Has there been any progress on this? For I definitively like the seperate catafalque page :D

The catafalque page definitely looks nice!

Is there any progress?