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[gameplay] merge wonder population auras
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Authored by Nescio on Aug 14 2020, 1:58 PM.

Details

Summary

This patch is a follow-up to D2660/rP23745 and D2686/rP23824. Currently wonders raise the population cap by +10 each by default and another +40 each after researching the “Glorious Expansion” technology. However, wonders already have many great advantages by default (win the game, territory root, resource trickle, heal garrisoned troops very quickly), therefore they don't really need the default +10; keeping two similar wonder auras also makes them less unique.
This patch merges the two population auras to one that increases the population cap after researching the technology (which is also renamed to match the aura file name).
[EDIT] Instead of flat +50, it now is relative: +20%.

Test Plan

Agree this is an improvement.

Diff Detail

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rP 0 A.D. Public Repository
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Event Timeline

Nescio created this revision.Aug 14 2020, 1:58 PM
Owners added a subscriber: Restricted Owners Package.Aug 14 2020, 1:58 PM
Nescio requested review of this revision.Aug 14 2020, 2:04 PM
borg- added a subscriber: borg-.Aug 14 2020, 11:56 PM

I can agree with that. It's a bit confusing as it is now and really + 10 pop makes almost no difference. I have nothing against it either, if "stackable" is taken out, hardly anyone converts it into a wonder.

Freagarach added inline comments.
binaries/data/mods/public/simulation/data/auras/structures/wonder_population.json
9 ↗(On Diff #13189)

Update.

binaries/data/mods/public/simulation/data/technologies/wonder_population.json
18 ↗(On Diff #13189)

I have nothing against it either, if "stackable" is taken out, hardly anyone converts it into a wonder.

What do you mean exactly? The wonder auras are actually stackable, this patch does not change that. As are the library, theatre, and kush temple of amun auras. Or are you of the opinion structure auras shouldn't be stackable?

binaries/data/mods/public/simulation/data/auras/structures/wonder_population.json
9 ↗(On Diff #13189)

Oops, that's a really consequential oversight!

binaries/data/mods/public/simulation/data/technologies/wonder_population.json
18 ↗(On Diff #13189)

Thanks, I'll update this tooltip.

Nescio updated this revision to Diff 13194.Aug 15 2020, 10:48 AM
badosu added a subscriber: badosu.Aug 15 2020, 10:49 AM

I don't understand why this is an absolute number instead of a fraction of the max pop cap, e.g. 25% (for 200 pop baseline) or 16.6% (for 300 pop baseline)

I don't understand why this is an absolute number instead of a fraction of the max pop cap, e.g. 25% (for 200 pop baseline) or 16.6% (for 300 pop baseline)

The "add": 50 could be replaced with e.g. "multiply": 1.2 (i.e. 20%), if you think that's better. However, the effect would be exponential, i.e. with a population cap of 250 the first wonder would add 50, the second 60, the third 72, andsoforth, so I guess that's why a flat addition rather than a multification was chosen in the past. I have no strong opinion on this specifically.

Nescio removed a reviewer: Restricted Owners Package.Aug 15 2020, 9:06 PM
borg- added a comment.EditedSep 5 2020, 4:27 PM

The "add": 50 could be replaced with e.g. "multiply": 1.2 (i.e. 20%), if you think that's better. However, the effect would be exponential, i.e. with a population cap of 250 the first wonder would add 50, the second 60, the third 72, andsoforth, so I guess that's why a flat addition rather than a multification was chosen in the past. I have no strong opinion on this specifically.

I think it is fairer a value in %, I also prefer.

Nescio updated this revision to Diff 13429.Sep 6 2020, 11:20 AM
Nescio edited the summary of this revision. (Show Details)
  • change population cap from flat +50 to relative +20%, per @badosu and @borg-
Nescio updated this revision to Diff 13430.Sep 6 2020, 11:22 AM
  • correct tooltip

(Means Britons don't get any pop bonus anymore.)

(Means Britons don't get any pop bonus anymore.)

What do you mean?

I mean that the Britons don't get structures/wonder_pop_1-aura when they constructed their wonder.

I mean that the Britons don't get structures/wonder_pop_1-aura when they constructed their wonder.

Actually they did; they just can't research the “Glorious Expansion” technology, which is problematic, but a problem introduced by rP22802, not by this patch.

Freagarach added a comment.EditedOct 28 2020, 5:17 PM

Situation prior to this patch:
Britons build a wonder, get +10 pop cap.
Situation after this patch:
Britons build a wonder.

Situation prior to this patch:
Any civ build a wonder, get +10 pop cap.
Situation after this patch:
Any civ build a wonder.

Yes, but any civ except Britons can get the +10 (albeit in a different form) by upgrading that tech. Though I do get your point. I just wanted to note this to whomever will review/commit it.

The correct solution to the issue you highlighted would be reverting rP22802 or at least removing the <ProductionQueue disable=""/> line from the brit_wonder.xml template. However, that's strictly outside the scope of this patch, and ought to be done regardless whether or not this one is committed.

After rP24417 the Britons are at equal again :)

What I don't like is that one now needs a lot more resources to get even the slightest pop cap increase. But this is balancing and I keep away from that ;)

Wonders already provide a territory root, have a resource trickle, and heal garrisoned units faster than anything else, so they're not exactly useless.

bb added a subscriber: bb.EditedDec 24 2020, 6:32 PM

Certainly agree on making it a % instead of a flat value. Not sure If I like the nuking of the pop bonus on plain wonder. Yes they have other advantages too, but the main reason to build it is the pop bonus, so I did keep some bonus for plain wonders too. Maybe 5% on plain wonder, 15% on tech?

Could be slightly weird, we don't have round values then anymore

Freagarach added a comment.EditedDec 25 2020, 7:54 AM
In D2951#144271, @bb wrote:

Could be slightly weird, we don't have round values then anymore

It is rounded anyway. (Houses get a % increase in pop-cap also.)

(Agreeing on bb's proposal.)

bb added a comment.Dec 25 2020, 2:29 PM

Not exactly what I mean: +5% +15% will yield +20.75% if I am not mistaking

The idea behind this patch is that it does not make much sense to have two auras for what is basically one thing. And I sincerely doubt players currently build wonders primarily for the +10 cap; it's rather insignificant without the technology.

borg- added a comment.EditedMon, Dec 28, 2:57 PM

The idea behind this patch is that it does not make much sense to have two auras for what is basically one thing. And I sincerely doubt players currently build wonders primarily for the +10 cap; it's rather insignificant without the technology.

I never built wonder cuz adding population.

And I sincerely doubt players currently build wonders primarily for the +10 cap; it's rather insignificant without the technology.

We always build a wonder merely for the increased pop cap :)

We always build a wonder merely for the increased pop cap :)

For the +10 or for the +50? I build wonders for the latter, which is significant, but not for the former, which is too minor.

For the +10 or for the +50? I build wonders for the latter, which is significant, but not for the former, which is too minor.

At first for the +10, since the +50 is too costly until very late in the game.
Our game is usually like this: Pump citizen soldiers until pop limit, find out we can't take cities with only those, build a wonder for the extra pop limit, build three rams, win.

For the +10 or for the +50? I build wonders for the latter, which is significant, but not for the former, which is too minor.

At first for the +10, since the +50 is too costly until very late in the game.
Our game is usually like this: Pump citizen soldiers until pop limit, find out we can't take cities with only those, build a wonder for the extra pop limit, build three rams, win.

I can hardly imagine spending 3500 resources (and 1000 build time) for a wonder is worth the +10 pop alone in most, if not any cases, from a competitive point of view. Either give the wonder per se a bigger pop bonus or remove it and leave it to the tech. I prefer the latter and also a percentage bonus, following the principles of a clean game design. 0 A.D. suffered (and still suffers) from mixing too many (often non-related) things e.g. in costs, tech effects or civ bonuses, obscuring their purpose and making clear, committing and impactful decisions difficult.

@Palaxin, if you fully agree with a patch, feel free to click “Accept Revision”.

Palaxin accepted this revision.EditedSat, Jan 16, 11:19 PM

See my previous message.
Thank you for your work!

This revision is now accepted and ready to land.Sat, Jan 16, 11:19 PM

Please rebase (I've made enough rebase errors).

Nescio updated this revision to Diff 15417.Sun, Jan 17, 12:53 PM
  • rebased

Build is green

builderr-debug-macos.txt
/Applications/Xcode.app/Contents/Developer/Toolchains/XcodeDefault.xctoolchain/usr/bin/ranlib: file: ../../../binaries/system/libengine_dbg.a(precompiled.o) has no symbols
/Applications/Xcode.app/Contents/Developer/Toolchains/XcodeDefault.xctoolchain/usr/bin/ranlib: file: ../../../binaries/system/libgraphics_dbg.a(precompiled.o) has no symbols
/Applications/Xcode.app/Contents/Developer/Toolchains/XcodeDefault.xctoolchain/usr/bin/ranlib: file: ../../../binaries/system/libgui_dbg.a(precompiled.o) has no symbols
ld: warning: text-based stub file /System/Library/Frameworks//CoreAudio.framework/CoreAudio.tbd and library file /System/Library/Frameworks//CoreAudio.framework/CoreAudio are out of sync. Falling back to library file for linking.
ld: warning: text-based stub file /System/Library/Frameworks//AudioToolbox.framework/AudioToolbox.tbd and library file /System/Library/Frameworks//AudioToolbox.framework/AudioToolbox are out of sync. Falling back to library file f

See https://jenkins.wildfiregames.com/job/macos-differential/2915/display/redirect for more details.

This revision was automatically updated to reflect the committed changes.