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Differential D3324

[gameplay] tweak fortress costs and health
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Authored by Nescio on Jan 11 2021, 2:58 PM.

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borg-

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Balancing

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rP24552: [Gameplay A24] - Tweak Fortress cost and Health.

Summary

D1761/rP22984 moved siege engines from the fortress to the arsenal.
D2801/rP24470 moved champion cavalry from the fortress to the stable.
This means fortresses are less important to have. On the other hand:
D1762/rP24393 gave fortresses a territory root.

This patch does the following:

The building time is lowered by 10%, putting it slightly below the civic centre.
The fortress cost is changed from 1000 stone to 300 wood and 600 stone, making them more affordable (a combination of two resources is easier to achieve than a lot of one) and also improving consistency (towers cost wood too) and realism (they're not simply stone blocks).
Since the fortress is somewhat cheaper and faster to build, its health is reduced by 10%.
Compared to its parent, the fortress used to have +3 crush resistance, which is equivalent to +37% health (1/0.9^3). Because health is a lot clearer to players than resistance, this patch replaces the resistance increases with a higher health (4200 health + 3 resistance is effectively the same as 5761 health; minus 10% makes 5185; hence 5200).
The increased cost and health of the Iberian are removed. There is no real historical justification for this, they look a lot weaker than e.g. Carthage's fortress, and the +50% build time could often actually be a penalty.

(Does the Iberian fortress really look 50% stronger to you?)

Test Plan

Agree with the proposed values.

Diff Detail

Repository

rP 0 A.D. Public Repository

Branch

/ps/trunk

Lint

Lint OK

Unit

No Unit Test Coverage

Build Status

Buildable 14878
Build 32055: Vulcan Build	Jenkins
Build 32054: Vulcan Build (macOS)	Jenkins
Build 32053: Vulcan Build (Windows)	Jenkins
Build 32048: arc lint + arc unit

Event Timeline

Nescio created this revision.Jan 11 2021, 2:58 PM

Owners added a subscriber: Restricted Owners Package.Jan 11 2021, 2:58 PM

Nescio edited the summary of this revision. (Show Details)Jan 11 2021, 3:02 PM

Build is green

builderr-debug-macos.txt
ld: warning: text-based stub file /System/Library/Frameworks//CoreAudio.framework/CoreAudio.tbd and library file /System/Library/Frameworks//CoreAudio.framework/CoreAudio are out of sync. Falling back to library file for linking.
ld: warning: text-based stub file /System/Library/Frameworks//AudioToolbox.framework/AudioToolbox.tbd and library file /System/Library/Frameworks//AudioToolbox.framework/AudioToolbox are out of sync. Falling back to library file for linking.
ld: warning: text-based stub file /System/Library/Frameworks//ForceFeedback.framework/ForceFeedback.tbd and library file /System/Library/Frameworks//ForceFeedback.framework/ForceFeedback are out of sync. Falling back to library file for linking.
ld: warning: text-based stub file /System/Library/Frameworks//CoreVideo.framework/CoreVideo.tbd and library file /System/Library/Frameworks//CoreVideo.framework/CoreVideo are out of sync. Falling back to library file for linking.
ld: warning: text-based stu

See https://jenkins.wildfiregames.com/job/macos-differential/2767/display/redirect for more details.

Wasn't the boosted health for iber fortresses made to depict their turtling nature?

Increasing the health instead of the crush damage means that it's now harder for all entities to destroy it, while before it was only harder for siege engines.

EDIT: As noted by @Freagarach on IRC this also nerfs Fire javelins. (Resistance of all buildings to fire is 0).

Harbormaster completed remote builds in B14870: Diff 15135.Jan 11 2021, 3:06 PM

Nescio requested review of this revision.Jan 11 2021, 3:06 PM

Stan added a subscriber: Freagarach.Jan 11 2021, 3:20 PM

I like the cost reduction and add a quantity of wood.
The extra armor removal is good but I don't like the increase to 6000, I would use a value of 4500.
Would like to keep the Iberian fort (as well as its towers) with more health.

Wasn't the boosted health for iber fortresses made to depict their turtling nature?

The Iberian fortress received a higher cost and health in rP9277, the health was further raised in rP11148 and again in rP11390 (nine years ago), and the cost in rP17706 as well. None of the commit messages explain why. My guess is iber fortresses are stronger simply because iber towers are stronger.

Increasing the health instead of the crush damage means that it's now harder for all entities to destroy it, while before it was only harder for siege engines.

Fortresses receive not only +3 crush, but also +5 hack and pierce resistance, so this patch makes it actually somewhat easier for other entities to destroy them. However, given the very low effectiveness of those damage types, it doesn't really matter.

EDIT: As noted by @Freagarach on IRC this also nerfs Fire javelins. (Resistance of all buildings to fire is 0).

Good point! Is that bad? (I still don't understand those new status effects.)

The extra armor removal is good but I don't like the increase to 6000, I would use a value of 4500.

Removing the resistance without compensating the health makes them much weaker.

Would like to keep the Iberian fort (as well as its towers) with more health.

Towers, sure, fortress, I beg to differ, but it's two against me, so I'll revert.
What to do with the iber fortress building time? +50% seems rather severe.

In D3324#147723, @Nescio wrote:

Good point! Is that bad? (I still don't understand those new status effects.)

Currently, the fire status effects are just doing damage over time. It uses fire damage, which is just another damage type, like Hack etc. are. Therefore removing damage resistance in favour of health is making the entities better against those fire damages as well.

Removing the resistance without compensating the health makes them much weaker.

Wouldn't values like 4600 be enough? Besides, they become cheaper, so I want to avoid fortress spam with 6000 health.

If the increase in health of the fortress is only because of the tower (for no historical reason), then I see no reason to maintain this and I am in favor of the removal.

Wouldn't values like 4600 be enough?

No. 4200 health + 3 resistance equals 5761 health. (And 6000 health − 3 resistance equals 4374 health.)

Nescio edited the summary of this revision. (Show Details)Jan 11 2021, 3:58 PM

Nescio removed a subscriber: Restricted Owners Package.

Nescio edited the summary of this revision. (Show Details)Jan 11 2021, 4:03 PM

Nescio edited the summary of this revision. (Show Details)

This patch could just only change the fortress cost, keeping their building time, health, resistance and the Iberians as is, if that's what you prefer.

Nescio retitled this revision from [gameplay] tweak fortress costs and time to [gameplay] tweak fortress costs and health.Jan 11 2021, 4:23 PM

I still have doubts about the health increase to 6000. even if it is an adequate number due to the reduction of armor, it still seems high to me. With the addition of wood and the small reduction in construction time and cost, I would lower that amount a little (compared to a24).

I still have doubts about the health increase to 6000. even if it is an adequate number due to the reduction of armor, it still seems high to me.

6000 merely looks a lot higher, the difference isn't that much in practice (about 4% harder to destroy with crush damage, although it's 15% easier with hack or pierce).

I've actually toyed with the idea of simply giving all structures 0 crush resistance and raising health accordingly, in order that the unit's attack crush damage displayed is the structure's health lost, making it much easier for people to compare structures. But such a change would be a rather large patch.

With the addition of wood and the small reduction in construction time and cost, I would lower that amount a little (compared to a24).

Lower it by how much, compared to A23? 10%? 20%?

Lower it by how much, compared to A23? 10%? 20%?

A yes, a23, sorry. 10%, same percentage of cost/time reduction seems to me adequate.

With the resistance line removal, a 10% health reduction would work out at 5185 health, so 5200. Or do you prefer to round it down to 5000 (i.e. −13%)?

In D3324#147781, @Nescio wrote:

With the resistance line removal, a 10% health reduction would work out at 5185 health, so 5200. Or do you prefer to round it down to 5000 (i.e. −13%)?

5200 is ok.

also lower fortress health, per @borg-

Owners added a subscriber: Restricted Owners Package.Jan 11 2021, 6:05 PM

Build is green

builderr-debug-macos.txt
ld: warning: text-based stub file /System/Library/Frameworks//CoreAudio.framework/CoreAudio.tbd and library file /System/Library/Frameworks//CoreAudio.framework/CoreAudio are out of sync. Falling back to library file for linking.
ld: warning: text-based stub file /System/Library/Frameworks//AudioToolbox.framework/AudioToolbox.tbd and library file /System/Library/Frameworks//AudioToolbox.framework/AudioToolbox are out of sync. Falling back to library file for linking.
ld: warning: text-based stub file /System/Library/Frameworks//ForceFeedback.framework/ForceFeedback.tbd and library file /System/Library/Frameworks//ForceFeedback.framework/ForceFeedback are out of sync. Falling back to library file for linking.
ld: warning: text-based stub file /System/Library/Frameworks//CoreVideo.framework/CoreVideo.tbd and library file /System/Library/Frameworks//CoreVideo.framework/CoreVideo are out of sync. Falling back to library file for linking.
ld: warning: text-based stu

See https://jenkins.wildfiregames.com/job/macos-differential/2774/display/redirect for more details.

Harbormaster completed remote builds in B14878: Diff 15143.Jan 11 2021, 6:22 PM

Balancing matters, the numbers are better now.
Adding wood to the cost makes it more realistic.
Addition of wood and 10% reduction makes the fortress easier to build, it makes sense as it can no longer train champion cavalry or siege machines (maybe soon champion infantry too), now functioning only as a defense and map control.
The overall 10% health reduction compared to a23 also makes sense when it becomes cheaper to build, avoiding fortress spam.
Removing extra health for Iberian fortress makes sense as it has no historical context for that, and its towers and wall circus are enough to make a good defensive civilization.

This revision is now accepted and ready to land.Jan 11 2021, 6:31 PM