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[gameplay] tweak ptol structures civ bonus again
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Authored by borg- on Thu, Jan 14, 2:05 AM.

Details

Reviewers
Nescio
Group Reviewers
Balancing
Summary

The cost of houses is 37 wood, with this patch it becomes 45 wood.

Patchs give -40% wood cost/loot and health.

Test Plan

Trivial.

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Event Timeline

borg- created this revision.Thu, Jan 14, 2:05 AM
borg- requested review of this revision.Thu, Jan 14, 2:06 AM
borg- updated this revision to Diff 15278.Thu, Jan 14, 2:10 AM
borg- edited the summary of this revision. (Show Details)

Please be aware that having such a long build time seriously impacts an economy. The saved wood cost is much less than the cost of the workers constructing the houses. (Yes multiple workers, since having one worker constructing is not enough to keep up.)

What's wrong with 37?
I don't particularly care about the exact values. If you think these are better, it's fine by.
@Freagarach has a valid point. Would 1.4 and 0.4 be better?

With free houses I used to need one and a half to two workers continuously constructing houses to keep up with only CC training, right from the start. As it stands now, this may be more of a handicap than a bonus.

borg- added a comment.Thu, Jan 14, 1:04 PM

I don't particularly care about the exact values. If you think these are better, it's fine by.
@Freagarach has a valid point. Would 1.4 and 0.4 be better?

The exact number would be 37.5 and 37 hurt my eyes haha.

@Freagarach you fine with 1.4 and 0.4?

You're the balancer, I'm merely stating an observation.

Nescio retitled this revision from [gameplay] Fix broken number in ptol_structures.json to [gameplay] tweak ptol structures civ bonus again.Thu, Jan 14, 6:28 PM
Nescio edited the summary of this revision. (Show Details)
Nescio edited the test plan for this revision. (Show Details)
borg- updated this revision to Diff 15312.Thu, Jan 14, 11:47 PM

+40% build time.

Intuitively, the wood cost is 75, which is about 100 seconds at start rate to gather. The build time is 30 seconds. This would lower gathering time by around 30s, while increasing build time by around 15s. So overall a net gain. If you add the storehouse (40s build time), things might become more complex.
However it becomes a net loss if one must put two units to build vs one for other civ at the starts. I'm not entirely sure, but I have a hunch that this 'bonus' comes out about equal right now.

It would probably be simpler to just lower the wood cost by 20% straight up.


Have to say this is still a pretty weird bonus. Sundiata has a point that they probably should have both faster build time, lower cost and lower HP. To be honest I'm not entirely sure "dried mud" is actually specific enough that it should be a civ bonus at all. Further, Kushites seem like they should benefit too?

I'm not really saying we should remove it, but if somebody has a better idea, it might be good.

Have to say this is still a pretty weird bonus. Sundiata has a point that they probably should have both faster build time, lower cost and lower HP.

The sun-dried mud bricks need time for the mud to dry in the sun, though.
More importantly, the reason Britons, Gauls, and Ptolemies are by far the most popular civs in multiplayer is fundamentally simple: they have an economic bonus at game start. Being able to develop more quickly early on is a clear advantage. Having both a cost reduction and a time discount (or population bonus) makes things a lot worse, the modifications compound and create a snowball effect. Therefore it's necessary to give civs only one such bonus (hence D2950), and ensure it has some kind of penalty.

To be honest I'm not entirely sure "dried mud" is actually specific enough that it should be a civ bonus at all. Further, Kushites seem like they should benefit too?

In the initial version of D3329 I proposed extending this civ bonus to cart, kush, and pers as well (for comparison, brit and gaul share a structure bonus, as do athen, mace, spart), but @borg- recommended against.

borg- added a comment.Fri, Jan 15, 1:53 PM

I agree that adding a proportional loss of health.

I guess my point is mostly that reducing the cost but increasing build time is essentially playing on the 'same thing', i.e. worker time, but in both directions at once. This makes it harder to understand what the bonus does. I would favour a straight small wood reduction over a complicated bonus like we have now.

borg- added a comment.Fri, Jan 15, 2:03 PM

I think you're right, it's a little bit boring to understand now. I can't make this change in the next few hours, so can someone command this patch?

I guess my point is mostly that reducing the cost but increasing build time is essentially playing on the 'same thing', i.e. worker time, but in both directions at once.

That's another way of phrasing what I meant.

This makes it harder to understand what the bonus does. I would favour a straight small wood reduction over a complicated bonus like we have now.

Feel free to replace the time increase with a health reduction.

A cost discount with a time increase is fine. (current ptol structures)
A cost discount with a health reduction is fine. (suggested ptol structures)
A time discount with a cost increase is fine.
A time discount with a health reduction is fine. (brit and gaul)
A health increase with a cost or time increase is fine. (cart walls)
Something that has both a cost discount and a time discount is not.

A cost discount with a health reduction is fine. (suggested ptol structures)

That would be my preferred option I guess, mirroring gaul/brit but with cost instead of time.

It's not a super fun bonus but it's not worse than the current one and it's easier to get.

borg- updated this revision to Diff 15362.Sat, Jan 16, 1:54 AM
borg- edited the summary of this revision. (Show Details)

Rebase.

Changes by @Nescio @wraitii

Nescio accepted this revision.Sat, Jan 16, 10:46 AM

Fine by me.

ptol_structures.json
13–15

Please alphabetize: Cost, Health, Loot.

This revision is now accepted and ready to land.Sat, Jan 16, 10:46 AM

This feels strong to me to be honest, are you confident that it's OK borg?

borg- added a comment.Sat, Jan 16, 8:56 PM

Yes, im confident.