As requested by @Feldfeld, this patch lowers the gather rate increases for wood, metal, stone technologies from 25% to 20% each and for grain from 20% to 15% each. The cumulative effect of researching three (i.e. in city phase) is now +73% and +52%, respectively, instead of +95% and +73%. The fishing and fruit technologies are left unchanged, as is the gaul-specific farming technology.
Details
- Reviewers
wraitii Feldfeld - Group Reviewers
Balancing - Commits
- rP24719: [Gameplay] - Make gather technologies less effective.
Check for typos.
Diff Detail
- Repository
- rP 0 A.D. Public Repository
- Lint
Automatic diff as part of commit; lint not applicable. - Unit
Automatic diff as part of commit; unit tests not applicable.
Event Timeline
Build is green
builderr-debug-macos.txt ld: warning: text-based stub file /System/Library/Frameworks//CoreAudio.framework/CoreAudio.tbd and library file /System/Library/Frameworks//CoreAudio.framework/CoreAudio are out of sync. Falling back to library file for linking. ld: warning: text-based stub file /System/Library/Frameworks//AudioToolbox.framework/AudioToolbox.tbd and library file /System/Library/Frameworks//AudioToolbox.framework/AudioToolbox are out of sync. Falling back to library file for linking. ld: warning: text-based stub file /System/Library/Frameworks//ForceFeedback.framework/ForceFeedback.tbd and library file /System/Library/Frameworks//ForceFeedback.framework/ForceFeedback are out of sync. Falling back to library file for linking. ld: warning: text-based stub file /System/Library/Frameworks//CoreVideo.framework/CoreVideo.tbd and library file /System/Library/Frameworks//CoreVideo.framework/CoreVideo are out of sync. Falling back to library file for linking. ld: warning: text-based stu
See https://jenkins.wildfiregames.com/job/macos-differential/2929/display/redirect for more details.
I do not agree for two reasons. The high cumulative values are for keeping the economy and constant training of soldiers in late game, mainly team game, reducing causes us to have problems with that. I chose 25% because you have an important choice here. You can choose a good gather rate gain and less pop, or higt pop and a a lower gather rate. If you want defend it is better to update, for those who want to attack early, better to invest a units, it is a difficult choice now.
If it is confirmed that it will be necessary to lower it, then an increasing value will be made, such as 20/25/30, so that the final value is in accordance with what I said at the beginning.
I'll copy my arguments from the balancing PM here:
"2 things changed that lead toward the same effects: the effect of economy technologies have been increased a lot for the early phases of the game (from +15% to +25% for anything that is not food, +15% to +20% for food I believe). Secondly, the train time of citizen soldiers and women also increased.
This has the result that players now will tend to stockpile ressources quite fast without being able to spend it on time. I personally don't like that, but I don't really know the opinion of other players on the matter.
I have 2 suggestions to deal with that:
- Reduce by 5% the effect of all economy technologies (including food)
- Go back to some sort of increasing by phase effect (like +15%/+20%/+30%). Note that as of now I feel like the last economy upgrade for any ressource isn't really worth to take since economy is already fast, and the technology costs quite a bit of metal (I don't suggest to change the cost). Then again I'm not sure about the opinions of other players about that."
About increasing value, Nescio replied this:
"This is intentional. Keep in mind modifications stack. So three times +25% means the last technology's increase is relatively equally large as the previous, but absolutely larger. With a base rate of 1, the additions are +0.25, +0.3125, +0.390625; together it's a 95% increase.
In earlier alphas it was +15%, +15%, and +50%, which together worked out as a 98% increase."
If the effect for all technologies is decreased I think it will actually make the last economy upgrade more interesting to take. Currently I feel it's better to just skip it because economy is already great.
Don't be fooled just by the modification number. Even if it were +30% (village), +25% (town), +20% (city), the last one would still be more effective than the first, because:
- modifications stack, so the absolute gain per worker is actually higher;
- players tend to have more units in late game than at game start, hence more workers benefit from the increase;
- their economies are stronger, so technology costs matter less (unlike unit costs, because units die).
Maybe not all technologies will be researched in every game (especially tiny maps I expect to end earlier), but that's fine, they'll still certainly give a clear advantage in some games, e.g. on giant maps.
I'm fine with both 25% each and 20% each, as well as with diminishing increases (e.g. 25%, 20%, 15%), but I'm opposed to raising later increases (e.g. 20%, 25%, 30%).
I think the slight reduction is probably a good call. The technologies right now are very very good.
As a basic indicator, a 20% increase is equivalent (slightly better, in fact) than 20% more workers, which in City Phase can easily mean 10+ worker-equivalent, which can mean 1000 Food & 500 wood for CS. I think the price is rather fair.
Requesting changes for the following reasons
- The healing icons use the old background and need to be updated.
- The icons use an incorrect naming convention. I don't think we have anything with _i _ii and _iii should be 01 02 03 04
If time permits
- Would be nice to use the new SVG letters on those. But I need help with the kerning.
Appartment icon will go when the diff goes.
@Stan, I know, but the files I posted were not meant for inclusion, they're just an example of how I think they should look. For the public repository one probably wants to use different I, II, III. And the healing icons are probably unnecessary.
Moreover, the icon changes (i.e. art) should be done separately from this patch (i.e. balance); they are an improvement regardless whether this one is committed. Likewise, you should just include the apartment icon; D2917 doesn't introduce a new entity, it just makes an already existing structure buildable, and having a proper icon is worth having indepently of this.
Well since I would need to change all the json files I'd rather do it here.
For the cart apartment, same thing I like to have more compact commits when possible. If you show me what you need with the kerning I can have the icons done by tonight.
Build is green
builderr-debug-macos.txt ld: warning: text-based stub file /System/Library/Frameworks//CoreAudio.framework/CoreAudio.tbd and library file /System/Library/Frameworks//CoreAudio.framework/CoreAudio are out of sync. Falling back to library file for linking. ld: warning: text-based stub file /System/Library/Frameworks//AudioToolbox.framework/AudioToolbox.tbd and library file /System/Library/Frameworks//AudioToolbox.framework/AudioToolbox are out of sync. Falling back to library file for linking. ld: warning: text-based stub file /System/Library/Frameworks//ForceFeedback.framework/ForceFeedback.tbd and library file /System/Library/Frameworks//ForceFeedback.framework/ForceFeedback are out of sync. Falling back to library file for linking. ld: warning: text-based stub file /System/Library/Frameworks//CoreVideo.framework/CoreVideo.tbd and library file /System/Library/Frameworks//CoreVideo.framework/CoreVideo are out of sync. Falling back to library file for linking. ld: warning: text-based stu
See https://jenkins.wildfiregames.com/job/macos-differential/2976/display/redirect for more details.
My proposition.
I think I remember Valihrant agreeing with that too when we played a game.