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[gameplay] hoplite_tradition tech
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Authored by borg- on Mar 14 2021, 8:33 PM.

Details

Summary

Like archery tradition, this technology aims to differentiate Athens and Spartan civilizations. It also aims to promote greater use of melee units in the game.

See also D3675, D3727, D3738.

Test Plan

Greater concern is a possible economic boom due to reduced training time.

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Event Timeline

borg- created this revision.Mar 14 2021, 8:33 PM
borg- requested review of this revision.Mar 14 2021, 8:33 PM
borg- updated this revision to Diff 16467.Mar 14 2021, 8:38 PM

Greater concern is a possible economic boom due to reduced training time.

If the game had maintained the gathering penalty for higher ranks, your concern about training bonus causing booming could have been mitigated somewhat by the increased promotion rate.

Honestly though, just the promotion bonus could suffice for this tech.

borg- added a comment.Mar 15 2021, 5:02 PM

Greater concern is a possible economic boom due to reduced training time.

If the game had maintained the gathering penalty for higher ranks, your concern about training bonus causing booming could have been mitigated somewhat by the increased promotion rate.

Honestly though, just the promotion bonus could suffice for this tech.

The penalty still exists, but a little less.
I like to shorten the training time, this gives the illusion of a bigger hoplite army, but maybe not 25%, 15% can be a good number.

Or an entirely different idea: how about allowing Athenian elite spearmen to promote to champions?

Or an entirely different idea: how about allowing Athenian elite spearmen to promote to champions?

Nice thought, but from a practical standpoint, melee units rarely get promoted up to p3 as it is because they are at the front of lines and consequently die more quickly. I doubt allowing elite spears to promote to champs would ever actually happen for 99% of players in competitive games.

borg- added a comment.EditedMar 15 2021, 8:16 PM

Or an entirely different idea: how about allowing Athenian elite spearmen to promote to champions?

it’s a good idea but I don’t think it should be done by tech. We can add this directly to the unit as a unit bonus. Technology would contribute very well to this.

borg- added a comment.Mar 15 2021, 8:17 PM

Are the numbers reasonable for you?

Greater concern is a possible economic boom due to reduced training time.

Well, being only researchable in Phase 2, in the Civic Center, at a pretty high cost, I doubt it'd be worth it to rush to this technology and try to use it for booming. It certainly does incentivize utilizing hoplites more for these civilizations and I like the idea.

chrstgtr accepted this revision.Mar 22 2021, 11:37 PM
This revision is now accepted and ready to land.Mar 22 2021, 11:37 PM

The Greek word ὁπλίτης (hoplitēs) means ‘heavy-armed foot soldier’ (i.e. melee infantry in 0 A.D. terminology) and could be and actually was used to describe Macedonian phalangites, Persian kardakes, or Roman legionaries as well. Moreover, the traditional hoplite wasn't uniquely Greek either, Carthaginians, Etruscans, and various Italic peoples fought in the same way. Furthermore, only the wealthy fought as hoplites, since a full panoply (arms) was rather expensive.

The lower experience requirement affects all ranks, not just advanced. And the lower training time is essentially an economic bonus (as you already pointed out yourself).
Why exactly did you chose these modifications? And did you consider alternatives (e.g. higher health)?

borg- added a comment.EditedMar 25 2021, 11:40 PM

The lower experience requirement affects all ranks, not just advanced. And the lower training time is essentially an economic bonus (as you already pointed out yourself).
Why exactly did you chose these modifications? And did you consider alternatives (e.g. higher health)?

Yes, I thought about other attributes, but I wanted to be a little different this time, and not give the same attributes as always, besides, it is a great tech with D3738.

Well, i dont believe players using this tech to boom eco, anyway city phase can be safe choice.

borg- added a comment.EditedMar 26 2021, 2:11 PM

The Greek word ὁπλίτης (hoplitēs) means ‘heavy-armed foot soldier’ (i.e. melee infantry in 0 A.D. terminology) and could be and actually was used to describe Macedonian phalangites, Persian kardakes, or Roman legionaries as well. Moreover, the traditional hoplite wasn't uniquely Greek either, Carthaginians, Etruscans, and various Italic peoples fought in the same way. Furthermore, only the wealthy fought as hoplites, since a full panoply (arms) was rather expensive.

Yes, this tech could be for other civilizations as well, but as the focus is to differentiate athens at that moment.

borg- added a comment.Mar 26 2021, 7:08 PM

The lower experience requirement affects all ranks, not just advanced.

I think I understand what you mean, is it about the tooltip? I don’t know the right word for it, but I didn’t want to refer to rank advance, just about advancing rank, so you can help me here to find a better word?

Thanks for the clarification, now I understand the misunderstanding!

binaries/data/mods/public/simulation/data/technologies/hoplite_tradition.json
22 ↗(On Diff #16467)

"and −50% promotion experience."

borg- updated this revision to Diff 16779.Mar 27 2021, 1:08 PM

tooltip by @Nescio

borg- marked an inline comment as done.Mar 27 2021, 1:08 PM
This comment was removed by borg-.
wraitii accepted this revision.Apr 28 2021, 9:42 AM
This revision was automatically updated to reflect the committed changes.
Owners added a subscriber: Restricted Owners Package.Apr 29 2021, 9:26 AM
Kate added a subscriber: Kate.May 12 2021, 11:58 AM

Perhaps we should give them an attack or defence bonus as well? I feel like spearmen are a bit weak right now. They should be able to kill archers in 2 stabs.

Kate added a comment.May 12 2021, 11:59 AM

How do you edit the xml files? I can see the content but I cannot edit anything.

@Kate
Phabricator is only a platform to show changes, not to make them (you make the changes locally, then upload to Phab). You can ask on IRC for more help about the workflow, but for now https://trac.wildfiregames.com/wiki/GettingStarted is a good starting point.
Also, this revision has been closed, meaning it is already in the development version.