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Roman Entrenched Army Camp TerritoryDecay fix
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Authored by elexis on May 2 2017, 4:42 PM.

Details

Summary

As reported by PhyZic and a numerous other players in previous alphas,
the current Entrenched Army camp decays within 14 seconds if left ungarrisoned,
which is way too short, since a player often has to be multitasking.

The balancing was changed in these commits:

rP11378 michael (added iberan CCs and) increased roman army camp HealthDecayRate from 4 to 5 with 3500HP
rP14388 michael (christmas special) added the "decay logistics" tech which still exists but isn't used anymore
rP15713 scythetwirler (alpha 17 rebalancing) removed "decay logistics" tech (but didn't remove the tech file) and changed max HP from 3600 to 2500
rP16550 sanderd17 (implemented capturing and) changed the HealthDecayRate of 10 to a loyalty point Decay, and added 1000 CapturePoints to all special_structures
rP17053 scythetwirler (nerfed capturing) reduced CapturePoints of template_structure from 1000 to the current 500, increased RegenRate from 0 to 0.5 and GarrisonRegenRate from 5 to 7.5
rP17060 scythetwirler (more loyalty drain) increased Territory.DecayRate from 10 to 50
rP17061 mimo (fix previous) reduced Territory.DecayRate from 50 to 30

So I propose to:

  • Use or delete the unused tech "Decay Logistics", if used, needs a new icon (pinged Pureon and scythetwirler on the forums)
  • To not decay to gaia if left unattended briefly, increase the default 500 capture points to 1500 (fort 4000, cc & military colony 2500)
  • Increase regenrate from 0.5 to 2 (fort has 10), keep GarrisonRegenRate as is (5), but copy to the current template, so that balancers have to decide what they want in this template
  • Reduce Health from 2500 that civic centers have to 1500, since this thing is a more vulnerable, makeshift building made out of wood.
  • (The specific name seems ok as it consists of the Camp https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castra and the Palisade Wall https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vallum )
Test Plan

Replay the attached file to measure the time that it takes for this thing to decay in gaia and age 3 enemy player owned territory.
Feel free to make a capturing playtest with garrisoned units.

Diff Detail

Repository
rP 0 A.D. Public Repository
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Unit
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Event Timeline

elexis created this revision.May 2 2017, 4:42 PM
elexis edited the summary of this revision. (Show Details)May 2 2017, 4:43 PM
elexis edited the test plan for this revision. (Show Details)
Vulcan added a subscriber: Vulcan.May 2 2017, 5:28 PM

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fatherbushido accepted this revision.May 2 2017, 6:57 PM

Use or delete the unused tech "Decay Logistics", if used, needs a new icon (pinged Pureon and scythetwirler on the forums)

I would be for use, but not really for delete if not used (I was for cleaning that tech folder but perhaps we will lose translations?)

Reduce Health from 2500 that civic centers have to 1500, since this thing is a more vulnerable, makeshift building made out of wood.

Consider also the armor

(Possible other things: distance restrictions, possibility to build in ally territory and that decay tech revival. Not for this patch).

binaries/data/mods/public/simulation/templates/structures/rome_army_camp.xml
37 ↗(On Diff #1594)

2.0? (nothing important)

38 ↗(On Diff #1594)

ok I understand why you keep it as you explained in summary. (Or put 4.0 as we can garrison 40 people?)

This revision is now accepted and ready to land.May 2 2017, 6:57 PM

At first look a blacksmith of a cost of 300 wood has 2000 health points, many more health points and armor (in particular the crush which is the most important) than the proposed Castrum Vallum.
While 2 garrisoned units only are required to prevent the Castrum Vallum from decaying, probably even 750 -1000 capture points are enough since the garrison limit is 40 and the more units are garrisoned in it, harder it becomes to capture the building.
Consider that the Castrum Vallum is cheap for its fire power and its garrison limit, worthy to say that veteran spearmen can be trained for the same cost of basic spearmen and that the batchmodifier is 0.7, while a barrack has 0.8

elexis marked 2 inline comments as done.EditedMay 3 2017, 12:53 PM
In D405#16879, @Grugnas wrote:

At first look a blacksmith of a cost of 300 wood has 2000 health points, many more health points and armor (in particular the crush which is the most important) than the proposed Castrum Vallum.

This has been annoying me for quite some time too. Thanks for recalling. I will make a proposal for a nerf of the tactical blacksmith (used in survival for example) X)

While 2 garrisoned units only are required to prevent the Castrum Vallum from decaying, probably even 750 -1000 capture points are enough since the garrison limit is 40 and the more units are garrisoned in it, harder it becomes to capture the building.

Agree with fatherbushido and you. Will nerf that to 4 for now.

Consider that the Castrum Vallum is cheap for its fire power and its garrison limit, worthy to say that veteran spearmen can be trained for the same cost of basic spearmen and that the batchmodifier is 0.7, while a barrack has 0.8

Agree, 400 wood is too cheap. Also minimum distance missing. BatchTimeModifier seems ok, since it's a special building in potentially enemy territory and they should hurry up.

We can often see it for turtling players being build right besides the CC and Fortress. Preventing the build in owned territory prevents that and highlights it's usage as a building for dominating and controling foes.
Same could be done for siege walls, but they don't have the additional turtle issue and the player shoudl be able to complete walls in case of the owned territory being a neighbor of the enemy territory

80m min distance:

binaries/data/mods/public/simulation/templates/structures/rome_army_camp.xml
6 ↗(On Diff #1594)

1 crush armor is really few (rP18045 gave special buildings 3 and this one 1). Reverting to 3 if you guys agree.

elexis updated this revision to Diff 1606.May 3 2017, 12:56 PM
elexis edited the summary of this revision. (Show Details)

80m minimum distance, like fortress
prevent building in owned territory to prevent turtle loza usage and highlighting its usage as a building for enemy dominance outside of the own territory
3 instead of 1 crush armor.
10 regen rate but only 3 garrisoned regen rate (so it converts to gaia after 50 seconds, which is still considerably quick)
2.0 instead of 2.

elexis updated this revision to Diff 1607.May 3 2017, 12:58 PM

Reduce arrow range from 80m to 50m.

fatherbushido accepted this revision.May 3 2017, 1:47 PM
elexis added a comment.May 3 2017, 2:17 PM

I'm not convinced anymore of the Health nerf, since a blacksmith, temple has 2k health, market 1500, big house 1200, storehouse 800 health (PhyZic also claimed the HP nerf was wrong, but the reasoning wasn't correct, it was claimed the historical castrum was way bigger and a stone building, but our model doesn't fit that historical description at all).
1 crush armor is 10%, 2 is 19%, 3 is 27%. I actually hadn't tested the health and armor changes before.
With 2500HP and 2 crush armor, the building still vanishes in 20 seconds against a signle non-upgraded ram, so it seems fine enough.

This revision was automatically updated to reflect the committed changes.
Vulcan added a comment.May 3 2017, 4:29 PM

Build is green

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Running cxxtest tests (306 tests)..................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................OK!
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Running cxxtest tests (306 tests)..................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................OK!

http://jw:8080/job/phabricator/971/ for more details.

Vulcan added a comment.May 3 2017, 5:15 PM

Build is green

Updating workspaces.
Build (release)...
Build (debug)...
Running release tests...
Running cxxtest tests (306 tests)..................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................OK!
Running debug tests...
Running cxxtest tests (306 tests)..................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................OK!

http://jw:8080/job/phabricator/972/ for more details.