Breakfastburrito_007 proposed this as a balancing change. Replacing mercenary cavalry spearman with citizen cavalry spearman makes this unit more affordable, and hence strengthens the Seleucid cavalry army. The reason behind being Seleucids lack melee cavalry to protect its cataphracts in a charge, resulting in the few cataphracts being the sole targets of archer fire and hence dying before they reach enemy lines. Mercenary cavalry is too expensive and can only be trained from Kleroukhia, which is not always accessible. This change enables the Seleucids to rival the Persians in the cavalry department meanwhile being able to protect themselves from an archer attack, and hence the Persians and archers will not always be OP compared to other civs.
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Buildable 17902 Build 41752: Vulcan Build Jenkins Build 41751: Vulcan Build (macOS) Jenkins Build 41750: Vulcan Build (Windows) Jenkins
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Successful build - Chance fights ever on the side of the prudent.
Debug: Microsoft (R) Build Engine version 15.9.21+g9802d43bc3 for .NET Framework Copyright (C) Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved. Release: Microsoft (R) Build Engine version 15.9.21+g9802d43bc3 for .NET Framework Copyright (C) Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.
Link to build: https://jenkins.wildfiregames.com/job/vs2015-differential/5720/display/redirect
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Successful build - Chance fights ever on the side of the prudent.
builderr-debug-macos.txt ld: warning: text-based stub file /System/Library/Frameworks//CoreAudio.framework/CoreAudio.tbd and library file /System/Library/Frameworks//CoreAudio.framework/CoreAudio are out of sync. Falling back to library file for linking. ld: warning: text-based stub file /System/Library/Frameworks//AudioToolbox.framework/AudioToolbox.tbd and library file /System/Library/Frameworks//AudioToolbox.framework/AudioToolbox are out of sync. Falling back to library file for linking. ld: warning: text-based stub file /System/Library/Frameworks//ForceFeedback.framework/ForceFeedback.tbd and library file /System/Library/Frameworks//ForceFeedback.framework/ForceFeedback are out of sync. Falling back to library file for linking. ld: warning: text-based stub file /System/Library/Frameworks//CoreVideo.framework/CoreVideo.tbd and library file /System/Library/Frameworks//CoreVideo.framework/CoreVideo are out of sync. 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Falling back to library file for linking. ld: warning: text-based stub file /System/Library/Frameworks/ApplicationServices.framework/Versions/A/Frameworks/LangAnalysis.framework/Versions/A/LangAnalysis.tbd and library file /System/Library/Frameworks/ApplicationServices.framework/Versions/A/Frameworks/LangAnalysis.framework/Versions/A/LangAnalysis are out of sync. Falling back to library file for linking. ld: warning: text-based stub file /System/Library/Frameworks/ApplicationServices.framework/Versions/A/Frameworks/PrintCore.framework/Versions/A/PrintCore.tbd and library file /System/Library/Frameworks/ApplicationServices.framework/Versions/A/Frameworks/PrintCore.framework/Versions/A/PrintCore are out of sync. Falling back to library file for linking. ld: warning: text-based stub file /System/Library/Frameworks/ApplicationServices.framework/Versions/A/Frameworks/QD.framework/Versions/A/QD.tbd and library file /System/Library/Frameworks/ApplicationServices.framework/Versions/A/Frameworks/QD.framework/Versions/A/QD are out of sync. Falling back to library file for linking. ld: warning: text-based stub file /System/Library/Frameworks/ApplicationServices.framework/Versions/A/Frameworks/SpeechSynthesis.framework/Versions/A/SpeechSynthesis.tbd and library file /System/Library/Frameworks/ApplicationServices.framework/Versions/A/Frameworks/SpeechSynthesis.framework/Versions/A/SpeechSynthesis are out of sync. Falling back to library file for linking. ld: warning: text-based stub file /System/Library/Frameworks//CoreFoundation.framework/Versions/A/CoreFoundation.tbd and library file /System/Library/Frameworks//CoreFoundation.framework/Versions/A/CoreFoundation are out of sync. 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Falling back to library file for linking. ld: warning: text-based stub file /System/Library/Frameworks/CoreServices.framework/Versions/A/Frameworks/LaunchServices.framework/Versions/A/LaunchServices.tbd and library file /System/Library/Frameworks/CoreServices.framework/Versions/A/Frameworks/LaunchServices.framework/Versions/A/LaunchServices are out of sync. Falling back to library file for linking. ld: warning: text-based stub file /System/Library/Frameworks/CoreServices.framework/Versions/A/Frameworks/DictionaryServices.framework/Versions/A/DictionaryServices.tbd and library file /System/Library/Frameworks/CoreServices.framework/Versions/A/Frameworks/DictionaryServices.framework/Versions/A/DictionaryServices are out of sync. Falling back to library file for linking. ld: warning: text-based stub file /System/Library/Frameworks/CoreServices.framework/Versions/A/Frameworks/SharedFileList.framework/Versions/A/SharedFileList.tbd and library file /System/Library/Frameworks/CoreServices.framework/Versions/A/Frameworks/SharedFileList.framework/Versions/A/SharedFileList are out of sync. Falling back to library file for linking. ld: warning: object file (../../../libraries/osx/fmt/lib/libfmt.a(format.cc.o)) was built for newer OSX version (10.13) than being linked (10.12) ld: warning: text-based stub file /System/Library/Frameworks//CoreFoundation.framework/CoreFoundation.tbd and library file /System/Library/Frameworks//CoreFoundation.framework/CoreFoundation are out of sync. Falling back to library file for linking. builderr-release-macos.txt ld: warning: text-based stub file /System/Library/Frameworks//CoreAudio.framework/CoreAudio.tbd and library file /System/Library/Frameworks//CoreAudio.framework/CoreAudio are out of sync. Falling back to library file for linking. ld: warning: text-based stub file /System/Library/Frameworks//AudioToolbox.framework/AudioToolbox.tbd and library file /System/Library/Frameworks//AudioToolbox.framework/AudioToolbox are out of sync. Falling back to library file for linking. ld: warning: text-based stub file /System/Library/Frameworks//ForceFeedback.framework/ForceFeedback.tbd and library file /System/Library/Frameworks//ForceFeedback.framework/ForceFeedback are out of sync. Falling back to library file for linking. ld: warning: text-based stub file /System/Library/Frameworks//CoreVideo.framework/CoreVideo.tbd and library file /System/Library/Frameworks//CoreVideo.framework/CoreVideo are out of sync. Falling back to library file for linking. ld: warning: text-based stub file /System/Library/Frameworks//Cocoa.framework/Cocoa.tbd and library file /System/Library/Frameworks//Cocoa.framework/Cocoa are out of sync. Falling back to library file for linking. ld: warning: text-based stub file /System/Library/Frameworks//IOKit.framework/IOKit.tbd and library file /System/Library/Frameworks//IOKit.framework/IOKit are out of sync. Falling back to library file for linking. ld: warning: text-based stub file /System/Library/Frameworks//QuartzCore.framework/QuartzCore.tbd and library file /System/Library/Frameworks//QuartzCore.framework/QuartzCore are out of sync. Falling back to library file for linking. ld: warning: text-based stub file /System/Library/Frameworks//Metal.framework/Metal.tbd and library file /System/Library/Frameworks//Metal.framework/Metal are out of sync. Falling back to library file for linking. ld: warning: text-based stub file /System/Library/Frameworks//OpenGL.framework/OpenGL.tbd and library file /System/Library/Frameworks//OpenGL.framework/OpenGL are out of sync. Falling back to library file for linking. ld: warning: text-based stub file /System/Library/Frameworks//Security.framework/Security.tbd and library file /System/Library/Frameworks//Security.framework/Security are out of sync. Falling back to library file for linking. ld: warning: text-based stub file /System/Library/Frameworks//OpenAL.framework/OpenAL.tbd and library file /System/Library/Frameworks//OpenAL.framework/OpenAL are out of sync. Falling back to library file for linking. ld: warning: text-based stub file /System/Library/Frameworks/OpenGL.framework/Versions/A/Libraries/libGLU.tbd and library file /System/Library/Frameworks/OpenGL.framework/Versions/A/Libraries/libGLU.dylib are out of sync. Falling back to library file for linking. ld: warning: text-based stub file /System/Library/Frameworks/OpenGL.framework/Versions/A/Libraries/libGL.tbd and library file /System/Library/Frameworks/OpenGL.framework/Versions/A/Libraries/libGL.dylib are out of sync. Falling back to library file for linking. ld: warning: text-based stub file /System/Library/Frameworks//AppKit.framework/Versions/C/AppKit.tbd and library file /System/Library/Frameworks//AppKit.framework/Versions/C/AppKit are out of sync. Falling back to library file for linking. ld: warning: text-based stub file /System/Library/Frameworks//CoreData.framework/Versions/A/CoreData.tbd and library file /System/Library/Frameworks//CoreData.framework/Versions/A/CoreData are out of sync. Falling back to library file for linking. ld: warning: text-based stub file /System/Library/Frameworks//ApplicationServices.framework/Versions/A/ApplicationServices.tbd and library file /System/Library/Frameworks//ApplicationServices.framework/Versions/A/ApplicationServices are out of sync. Falling back to library file for linking. ld: warning: text-based stub file /System/Library/Frameworks/Carbon.framework/Versions/A/Frameworks/CommonPanels.framework/Versions/A/CommonPanels.tbd and library file /System/Library/Frameworks/Carbon.framework/Versions/A/Frameworks/CommonPanels.framework/Versions/A/CommonPanels are out of sync. Falling back to library file for linking. ld: warning: text-based stub file /System/Library/Frameworks/Carbon.framework/Versions/A/Frameworks/HIToolbox.framework/Versions/A/HIToolbox.tbd and library file /System/Library/Frameworks/Carbon.framework/Versions/A/Frameworks/HIToolbox.framework/Versions/A/HIToolbox are out of sync. Falling back to library file for linking. ld: warning: text-based stub file /System/Library/Frameworks/Carbon.framework/Versions/A/Frameworks/Help.framework/Versions/A/Help.tbd and library file /System/Library/Frameworks/Carbon.framework/Versions/A/Frameworks/Help.framework/Versions/A/Help are out of sync. Falling back to library file for linking. ld: warning: text-based stub file /System/Library/Frameworks/Carbon.framework/Versions/A/Frameworks/ImageCapture.framework/Versions/A/ImageCapture.tbd and library file /System/Library/Frameworks/Carbon.framework/Versions/A/Frameworks/ImageCapture.framework/Versions/A/ImageCapture are out of sync. Falling back to library file for linking. ld: warning: text-based stub file /System/Library/Frameworks/Carbon.framework/Versions/A/Frameworks/Ink.framework/Versions/A/Ink.tbd and library file /System/Library/Frameworks/Carbon.framework/Versions/A/Frameworks/Ink.framework/Versions/A/Ink are out of sync. Falling back to library file for linking. ld: warning: text-based stub file /System/Library/Frameworks/Carbon.framework/Versions/A/Frameworks/OpenScripting.framework/Versions/A/OpenScripting.tbd and library file /System/Library/Frameworks/Carbon.framework/Versions/A/Frameworks/OpenScripting.framework/Versions/A/OpenScripting are out of sync. Falling back to library file for linking. ld: warning: text-based stub file /System/Library/Frameworks/Carbon.framework/Versions/A/Frameworks/Print.framework/Versions/A/Print.tbd and library file /System/Library/Frameworks/Carbon.framework/Versions/A/Frameworks/Print.framework/Versions/A/Print are out of sync. Falling back to library file for linking. ld: warning: text-based stub file /System/Library/Frameworks/Carbon.framework/Versions/A/Frameworks/SecurityHI.framework/Versions/A/SecurityHI.tbd and library file /System/Library/Frameworks/Carbon.framework/Versions/A/Frameworks/SecurityHI.framework/Versions/A/SecurityHI are out of sync. Falling back to library file for linking. ld: warning: text-based stub file /System/Library/Frameworks/Carbon.framework/Versions/A/Frameworks/SpeechRecognition.framework/Versions/A/SpeechRecognition.tbd and library file /System/Library/Frameworks/Carbon.framework/Versions/A/Frameworks/SpeechRecognition.framework/Versions/A/SpeechRecognition are out of sync. Falling back to library file for linking. ld: warning: text-based stub file /System/Library/Frameworks//CoreImage.framework/Versions/A/CoreImage.tbd and library file /System/Library/Frameworks//CoreImage.framework/Versions/A/CoreImage are out of sync. Falling back to library file for linking. ld: warning: text-based stub file /System/Library/PrivateFrameworks/UIFoundation.framework/Versions/A/UIFoundation.tbd and library file /System/Library/PrivateFrameworks/UIFoundation.framework/Versions/A/UIFoundation are out of sync. Falling back to library file for linking. ld: warning: text-based stub file /System/Library/Frameworks//Foundation.framework/Versions/C/Foundation.tbd and library file /System/Library/Frameworks//Foundation.framework/Versions/C/Foundation are out of sync. Falling back to library file for linking. ld: warning: text-based stub file /System/Library/Frameworks//CoreGraphics.framework/Versions/A/CoreGraphics.tbd and library file /System/Library/Frameworks//CoreGraphics.framework/Versions/A/CoreGraphics are out of sync. Falling back to library file for linking. ld: warning: text-based stub file /System/Library/Frameworks//CoreText.framework/Versions/A/CoreText.tbd and library file /System/Library/Frameworks//CoreText.framework/Versions/A/CoreText are out of sync. Falling back to library file for linking. ld: warning: text-based stub file /System/Library/Frameworks//ImageIO.framework/Versions/A/ImageIO.tbd and library file /System/Library/Frameworks//ImageIO.framework/Versions/A/ImageIO are out of sync. Falling back to library file for linking. ld: warning: text-based stub file /System/Library/Frameworks//ColorSync.framework/Versions/A/ColorSync.tbd and library file /System/Library/Frameworks//ColorSync.framework/Versions/A/ColorSync are out of sync. Falling back to library file for linking. ld: warning: text-based stub file /System/Library/Frameworks/ApplicationServices.framework/Versions/A/Frameworks/ATS.framework/Versions/A/ATS.tbd and library file /System/Library/Frameworks/ApplicationServices.framework/Versions/A/Frameworks/ATS.framework/Versions/A/ATS are out of sync. Falling back to library file for linking. ld: warning: text-based stub file /System/Library/Frameworks/ApplicationServices.framework/Versions/A/Frameworks/ColorSyncLegacy.framework/Versions/A/ColorSyncLegacy.tbd and library file /System/Library/Frameworks/ApplicationServices.framework/Versions/A/Frameworks/ColorSyncLegacy.framework/Versions/A/ColorSyncLegacy are out of sync. Falling back to library file for linking. ld: warning: text-based stub file /System/Library/Frameworks//CoreServices.framework/Versions/A/CoreServices.tbd and library file /System/Library/Frameworks//CoreServices.framework/Versions/A/CoreServices are out of sync. Falling back to library file for linking. ld: warning: text-based stub file /System/Library/Frameworks/ApplicationServices.framework/Versions/A/Frameworks/HIServices.framework/Versions/A/HIServices.tbd and library file /System/Library/Frameworks/ApplicationServices.framework/Versions/A/Frameworks/HIServices.framework/Versions/A/HIServices are out of sync. Falling back to library file for linking. ld: warning: text-based stub file /System/Library/Frameworks/ApplicationServices.framework/Versions/A/Frameworks/LangAnalysis.framework/Versions/A/LangAnalysis.tbd and library file /System/Library/Frameworks/ApplicationServices.framework/Versions/A/Frameworks/LangAnalysis.framework/Versions/A/LangAnalysis are out of sync. Falling back to library file for linking. ld: warning: text-based stub file /System/Library/Frameworks/ApplicationServices.framework/Versions/A/Frameworks/PrintCore.framework/Versions/A/PrintCore.tbd and library file /System/Library/Frameworks/ApplicationServices.framework/Versions/A/Frameworks/PrintCore.framework/Versions/A/PrintCore are out of sync. Falling back to library file for linking. ld: warning: text-based stub file /System/Library/Frameworks/ApplicationServices.framework/Versions/A/Frameworks/QD.framework/Versions/A/QD.tbd and library file /System/Library/Frameworks/ApplicationServices.framework/Versions/A/Frameworks/QD.framework/Versions/A/QD are out of sync. Falling back to library file for linking. ld: warning: text-based stub file /System/Library/Frameworks/ApplicationServices.framework/Versions/A/Frameworks/SpeechSynthesis.framework/Versions/A/SpeechSynthesis.tbd and library file /System/Library/Frameworks/ApplicationServices.framework/Versions/A/Frameworks/SpeechSynthesis.framework/Versions/A/SpeechSynthesis are out of sync. Falling back to library file for linking. ld: warning: text-based stub file /System/Library/Frameworks//CFNetwork.framework/Versions/A/CFNetwork.tbd and library file /System/Library/Frameworks//CFNetwork.framework/Versions/A/CFNetwork are out of sync. 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Link to build: https://jenkins.wildfiregames.com/job/macos-differential/4625/display/redirect
Comment Actions
Can you add context ? pass -U5000 to your diff command. :)
| binaries/data/mods/public/simulation/templates/structures/sele/stable.xml | ||
|---|---|---|
| 9 | Indent with spaces (two spaces) | |
| binaries/data/mods/public/simulation/templates/units/sele/cavalry_spearman_merc_b.xml | ||
| 2 | You need to change the icon too, cause it's green. | |
Comment Actions
Mercenary cavalry is too expensive and can only be trained from Kleroukhia, which is not always accessible.
It doesn't make much sense to me to replace the mercenary unit with a citizen counterpart because mercenaries are currently underpowered. The unit being a mercenary adds a different dynamic compared to the Persians.
This change enables the Seleucids to rival the Persians in the cavalry department meanwhile being able to protect themselves from an archer attack, and hence the Persians and archers will not always be OP compared to other civs.
Can you explain more what you mean with this as I don't understand.
Comment Actions
Spear cavalry counters other cavalry, so if we have a cavalry battle between the Seleucids and Persians now, the Persians will kill all of the Seleucid horses quite easily with a few Cappadocian Cavalry Spearmen. The Seleucids cannot do the same to Persians without spending huge amounts of metal on champions or mercenaries. Therefore as a Seleucid Player you have a weakness against the Persians and you will refrain from using cavalry if you see the Persian Opponent making a lot of them.
Cavalry is generally underused in A24, and if the Seleucids are now almost as good as the Persians in cavalry, then we can perhaps change that dynamic, also more people will play the Seleucid civ, which is actually capable of many surprising strategies, especially if spear cavalry is added.
You can't spam military colony like stables so you will always produce less mercenary spear cavalry per minute no matter how rich you are.
Comment Actions
Spear cavalry counters other cavalry, so if we have a cavalry battle between the Seleucids and Persians now, the Persians will kill all of the Seleucid horses quite easily with a few Cappadocian Cavalry Spearmen. The Seleucids cannot do the same to Persians without spending huge amounts of metal on champions or mercenaries. Therefore as a Seleucid Player you have a weakness against the Persians and you will refrain from using cavalry if you see the Persian Opponent making a lot of them.
I think you overestimate how well spear cavalry counter other cavalry. Best comparison is Camel Riders from AoE2. If outnumbered they will lose to Knights, but in about equal numbers they'll take a pretty convincing fight. A major factor in such matchups, at least in my experience, is that players want to keep massing their power unit and spear cavalry interrupts that. Keep in mind that spear cavalry are still countered by spearmen and it's not difficult to bring forward a few of them. So that forces the enemy to either commit to spear cavalry, which deviates from their game plan and is vulnerable to opposing spearmen, or continue going for their initial power unit and maybe mix some spear cav as a threat if the enemy tries to push too far out. Also, the military colony plays into a strength of archer cav, which is securing map control. They're much cheaper than CCs and let you secure vulnerable spots of the enemies base or just get access to metal/wood.
Cavalry is generally underused in A24, and if the Seleucids are now almost as good as the Persians in cavalry, then we can perhaps change that dynamic, also more people will play the Seleucid civ, which is actually capable of many surprising strategies, especially if spear cavalry is added.
From the very few MP games of A25 I have tested, I really liked going cav so that should hopefully change, but hopefully not into the cavalry is op territory. I'd also say that a reason for Seleucids currently being rarer is that many hosts ban archer play and that includes cav archers. The Seleucid hero is also superior in terms of making your army much more sustainable while under fire of enemy towers, forts, etc.
You can't spam military colony like stables so you will always produce less mercenary spear cavalry per minute no matter how rich you are.
Mercs do have a faster train time, but it doesn't make up for not being able to put down as many production buildings, true.
Comment Actions
I suppose with a25 approaching quickly, it is best to be patient and see whether or not the merc spearcav will be viable. My expectation is that mercs will still be unusable, but eventually they will get to a good place, and when that happens, seleucids will have a good melee cavalry option. However I do think the costs for mercenaries will be a problem as long as it is fully metal, the short version of my idea for mercs is that they should be like skiri in cost distribution/power but can't gather.