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Random maps: Balanced resources
Needs ReviewPublic

Authored by Feldfeld on Aug 27 2021, 12:51 PM.

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Group Reviewers
Balancing
Summary

This patch currently adds a function which places additionnal food around player bases in a balanced way. It is a bit WIP, it can be improved due to (hopefully) feedback from other players, and there are 1 or 2 features missing.
It could also be extended to other resources.

The multiplayer community is interested in the balance of the game, and map balancing is an important part of it. Since mainland is the most standard map played online, it is the first map getting changed in this patch.
The biggest cause of imbalance in multiplayer games is the availability of additionnal food near the player base. Because this food is faster to gather than say fields, and because it can facilitate strategies such as cavalry rushing, you can see there is an interest of having each player get a similar amount of food around his base.
Wood availability is another cause of imbalanced which I will probably address some point later.
You can note that the code is perhaps a bit longer than what you would expect, with a few uses of random functions and differentiation between hunt and berries, that is because I not only want the map to be balanced but also to emulate the diversity we had with maps where resource distribution is completely random (so it is possible one player has hunt while the other has berries).

Despite it being a bit WIP, feel free to review the work already done from a code style / conventions standpoint.

A few things to note:

  • I don't really know where the function getSurroundingAreas should be, but remember it could be extended to only keeping the area which doesn't intersect with other players area.
  • foodAvailability and huntBerryRatio are arguments that would typically be set in the biome files.

For now mainland uses it, but as you can imagine it should be very easy to plug and play in many other maps.

Also forgot to remove debug line, don't mind it.

Test Plan

Generate maps, search for bugs, verify that resources are balanced and gameplay is enjoyable

Diff Detail

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Event Timeline

Feldfeld created this revision.Aug 27 2021, 12:51 PM
Feldfeld requested review of this revision.Aug 27 2021, 12:51 PM

It would make it easier for potential reviewers to take a look at your patch if you would provide context. :)
(And set the repository to 0 A.D. when uploading.)

smiley added a subscriber: smiley.Aug 27 2021, 3:36 PM
smiley added inline comments.
binaries/data/mods/public/maps/random/rmgen-common/gaia_entities.js
353 ↗(On Diff #18476)

Just pass the player positions along with radius. The function returning discs for each is kinda not needed. pos.map(p => disk(pos, r)) is the whole function essentially.

binaries/data/mods/public/maps/random/rmgen/library.js
88 ↗(On Diff #18476)

Its in the right place, but whats the case for its existence?

Also, name is kinda non descriptive, mostly because in this context, surrounding areas at first glance implies a search and return function. If kept, it could be get getCircleAreas or something.

As for potentials, as mentioned before, I don't really want to consider too much, mostly because my vision for the entire thing has changed.

https://gist.github.com/livvv2k/a2aca768f7e612f7ecbe495415cb7081 as sent to another good soul who spent a whole of time in this.

When and if time allows, I would be spending my time implementing that, most likely as a mod. I have no clue if the new paradigm is even sane though, however, if it is, it would allow for async / threaded map gen which would probably allow to do a lot more fun things.

My main question is 'how necessary is this' versus regular placers with high enough repetitions?
My understanding is that the most relevant piece is the code that picks the area surrounding a player base, but that's just a "neighborconstraint" (can't remember the proper name, think it's not that) large enough, no?

Feldfeld updated this revision to Diff 18477.Aug 27 2021, 5:05 PM
Feldfeld marked 2 inline comments as done.
Feldfeld edited the summary of this revision. (Show Details)
Feldfeld set the repository for this revision to rP 0 A.D. Public Repository.

It would make it easier for potential reviewers to take a look at your patch if you would provide context. :)
(And set the repository to 0 A.D. when uploading.)

If it is what you mean, the context is that the multiplayer community is interested in the balance of the game, and map balancing is an important part of it. Since mainland is the most standard map played online, it is the first map getting changed in this patch.
The biggest cause of imbalance in multiplayer games is the availability of additionnal food near the player base. Because this food is faster to gather than say fields, and because it can facilitate strategies such as cavalry rushing, you can see there is an interest of having each player get a similar amount of food around his base.
Wood availability is another cause of imbalanced which I will probably address some point later.
You can note that the code is perhaps a bit longer than what you would expect, with a few uses of random functions and differentiation between hunt and berries, that is because I not only want the map to be balanced but also to emulate the diversity we had with maps where resource distribution is completely random (so it is possible one player has hunt while the other has berries).
I didn't know about the repository thing.

As for potentials, as mentioned before, I don't really want to consider too much, mostly because my vision for the entire thing has changed.

https://gist.github.com/livvv2k/a2aca768f7e612f7ecbe495415cb7081 as sent to another good soul who spent a whole of time in this.

When and if time allows, I would be spending my time implementing that, most likely as a mod. I have no clue if the new paradigm is even sane though, however, if it is, it would allow for async / threaded map gen which would probably allow to do a lot more fun things.

It would indeed be nice, you have all my encouragements for this. For me, if I had time, I would make a new, stronger AI. But it sure does take time, and my studies are not over.

My main question is 'how necessary is this' versus regular placers with high enough repetitions?
My understanding is that the most relevant piece is the code that picks the area surrounding a player base, but that's just a "neighborconstraint" (can't remember the proper name, think it's not that) large enough, no?

I see 2 reasons for this, first, as I claim the map to be balanced, I really don't want some resources to fail to be placed, which is why even using areas I still have a lot of repetitions. Now I don't really know if my current values are good of necessary, I base this on tests I did in a23 I only have small memories of, but using areas for important stuff looks intuitive for me. Also, in giant map size there is a lot more retry needed (so we would need to tune for it), especially considering the area where resources can be placed is only a small annulus in the end.
The second reason is that the neighborconstraint would need a tileclass I believe, so it is necessary to have a different tileclass for each player I want to give resources. But I could be wrong.

binaries/data/mods/public/maps/random/rmgen/library.js
88 ↗(On Diff #18476)

Makes sense. It might be possible that I reuse the code if I make similar balancing code for forests, but it's pretty much nothing.

Successful build - Chance fights ever on the side of the prudent.

Debug: 
Microsoft (R) Build Engine version 15.9.21+g9802d43bc3 for .NET Framework
Copyright (C) Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.

Release: 
Microsoft (R) Build Engine version 15.9.21+g9802d43bc3 for .NET Framework
Copyright (C) Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.

Link to build: https://jenkins.wildfiregames.com/job/vs2015-differential/5945/display/redirect

Successful build - Chance fights ever on the side of the prudent.

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ld: warning: text-based stub file /System/Library/Frameworks/Carbon.framework/Versions/A/Frameworks/Print.framework/Versions/A/Print.tbd and library file /System/Library/Frameworks/Carbon.framework/Versions/A/Frameworks/Print.framework/Versions/A/Print are out of sync. Falling back to library file for linking.
ld: warning: text-based stub file /System/Library/Frameworks/Carbon.framework/Versions/A/Frameworks/SecurityHI.framework/Versions/A/SecurityHI.tbd and library file /System/Library/Frameworks/Carbon.framework/Versions/A/Frameworks/SecurityHI.framework/Versions/A/SecurityHI are out of sync. Falling back to library file for linking.
ld: warning: text-based stub file /System/Library/Frameworks/Carbon.framework/Versions/A/Frameworks/SpeechRecognition.framework/Versions/A/SpeechRecognition.tbd and library file /System/Library/Frameworks/Carbon.framework/Versions/A/Frameworks/SpeechRecognition.framework/Versions/A/SpeechRecognition are out of sync. Falling back to library file for linking.
ld: warning: text-based stub file /System/Library/Frameworks//CoreImage.framework/Versions/A/CoreImage.tbd and library file /System/Library/Frameworks//CoreImage.framework/Versions/A/CoreImage are out of sync. Falling back to library file for linking.
ld: warning: text-based stub file /System/Library/Frameworks/OpenGL.framework/Versions/A/Libraries/libGLU.tbd and library file /System/Library/Frameworks/OpenGL.framework/Versions/A/Libraries/libGLU.dylib are out of sync. Falling back to library file for linking.
ld: warning: text-based stub file /System/Library/Frameworks/OpenGL.framework/Versions/A/Libraries/libGL.tbd and library file /System/Library/Frameworks/OpenGL.framework/Versions/A/Libraries/libGL.dylib are out of sync. Falling back to library file for linking.
ld: warning: text-based stub file /System/Library/Frameworks//CoreGraphics.framework/Versions/A/CoreGraphics.tbd and library file /System/Library/Frameworks//CoreGraphics.framework/Versions/A/CoreGraphics are out of sync. Falling back to library file for linking.
ld: warning: text-based stub file /System/Library/Frameworks//CoreText.framework/Versions/A/CoreText.tbd and library file /System/Library/Frameworks//CoreText.framework/Versions/A/CoreText are out of sync. Falling back to library file for linking.
ld: warning: text-based stub file /System/Library/Frameworks//ImageIO.framework/Versions/A/ImageIO.tbd and library file /System/Library/Frameworks//ImageIO.framework/Versions/A/ImageIO are out of sync. Falling back to library file for linking.
ld: warning: text-based stub file /System/Library/Frameworks//ColorSync.framework/Versions/A/ColorSync.tbd and library file /System/Library/Frameworks//ColorSync.framework/Versions/A/ColorSync are out of sync. Falling back to library file for linking.
ld: warning: text-based stub file /System/Library/Frameworks/ApplicationServices.framework/Versions/A/Frameworks/ATS.framework/Versions/A/ATS.tbd and library file /System/Library/Frameworks/ApplicationServices.framework/Versions/A/Frameworks/ATS.framework/Versions/A/ATS are out of sync. Falling back to library file for linking.
ld: warning: text-based stub file /System/Library/Frameworks/ApplicationServices.framework/Versions/A/Frameworks/ColorSyncLegacy.framework/Versions/A/ColorSyncLegacy.tbd and library file /System/Library/Frameworks/ApplicationServices.framework/Versions/A/Frameworks/ColorSyncLegacy.framework/Versions/A/ColorSyncLegacy are out of sync. Falling back to library file for linking.
ld: warning: text-based stub file /System/Library/Frameworks//CoreServices.framework/Versions/A/CoreServices.tbd and library file /System/Library/Frameworks//CoreServices.framework/Versions/A/CoreServices are out of sync. Falling back to library file for linking.
ld: warning: text-based stub file /System/Library/Frameworks/ApplicationServices.framework/Versions/A/Frameworks/HIServices.framework/Versions/A/HIServices.tbd and library file /System/Library/Frameworks/ApplicationServices.framework/Versions/A/Frameworks/HIServices.framework/Versions/A/HIServices are out of sync. Falling back to library file for linking.
ld: warning: text-based stub file /System/Library/Frameworks/ApplicationServices.framework/Versions/A/Frameworks/LangAnalysis.framework/Versions/A/LangAnalysis.tbd and library file /System/Library/Frameworks/ApplicationServices.framework/Versions/A/Frameworks/LangAnalysis.framework/Versions/A/LangAnalysis are out of sync. Falling back to library file for linking.
ld: warning: text-based stub file /System/Library/Frameworks/ApplicationServices.framework/Versions/A/Frameworks/PrintCore.framework/Versions/A/PrintCore.tbd and library file /System/Library/Frameworks/ApplicationServices.framework/Versions/A/Frameworks/PrintCore.framework/Versions/A/PrintCore are out of sync. Falling back to library file for linking.
ld: warning: text-based stub file /System/Library/Frameworks/ApplicationServices.framework/Versions/A/Frameworks/QD.framework/Versions/A/QD.tbd and library file /System/Library/Frameworks/ApplicationServices.framework/Versions/A/Frameworks/QD.framework/Versions/A/QD are out of sync. Falling back to library file for linking.
ld: warning: text-based stub file /System/Library/Frameworks/ApplicationServices.framework/Versions/A/Frameworks/SpeechSynthesis.framework/Versions/A/SpeechSynthesis.tbd and library file /System/Library/Frameworks/ApplicationServices.framework/Versions/A/Frameworks/SpeechSynthesis.framework/Versions/A/SpeechSynthesis are out of sync. Falling back to library file for linking.
ld: warning: text-based stub file /System/Library/PrivateFrameworks/UIFoundation.framework/Versions/A/UIFoundation.tbd and library file /System/Library/PrivateFrameworks/UIFoundation.framework/Versions/A/UIFoundation are out of sync. Falling back to library file for linking.
ld: warning: text-based stub file /System/Library/Frameworks//Foundation.framework/Versions/C/Foundation.tbd and library file /System/Library/Frameworks//Foundation.framework/Versions/C/Foundation are out of sync. Falling back to library file for linking.
ld: warning: text-based stub file /System/Library/Frameworks//CFNetwork.framework/Versions/A/CFNetwork.tbd and library file /System/Library/Frameworks//CFNetwork.framework/Versions/A/CFNetwork are out of sync. Falling back to library file for linking.
ld: warning: text-based stub file /System/Library/Frameworks/CoreServices.framework/Versions/A/Frameworks/FSEvents.framework/Versions/A/FSEvents.tbd and library file /System/Library/Frameworks/CoreServices.framework/Versions/A/Frameworks/FSEvents.framework/Versions/A/FSEvents are out of sync. Falling back to library file for linking.
ld: warning: text-based stub file /System/Library/Frameworks/CoreServices.framework/Versions/A/Frameworks/CarbonCore.framework/Versions/A/CarbonCore.tbd and library file /System/Library/Frameworks/CoreServices.framework/Versions/A/Frameworks/CarbonCore.framework/Versions/A/CarbonCore are out of sync. Falling back to library file for linking.
ld: warning: text-based stub file /System/Library/Frameworks/CoreServices.framework/Versions/A/Frameworks/Metadata.framework/Versions/A/Metadata.tbd and library file /System/Library/Frameworks/CoreServices.framework/Versions/A/Frameworks/Metadata.framework/Versions/A/Metadata are out of sync. Falling back to library file for linking.
ld: warning: text-based stub file /System/Library/Frameworks/CoreServices.framework/Versions/A/Frameworks/OSServices.framework/Versions/A/OSServices.tbd and library file /System/Library/Frameworks/CoreServices.framework/Versions/A/Frameworks/OSServices.framework/Versions/A/OSServices are out of sync. Falling back to library file for linking.
ld: warning: text-based stub file /System/Library/Frameworks/CoreServices.framework/Versions/A/Frameworks/SearchKit.framework/Versions/A/SearchKit.tbd and library file /System/Library/Frameworks/CoreServices.framework/Versions/A/Frameworks/SearchKit.framework/Versions/A/SearchKit are out of sync. Falling back to library file for linking.
ld: warning: text-based stub file /System/Library/Frameworks//CoreFoundation.framework/Versions/A/CoreFoundation.tbd and library file /System/Library/Frameworks//CoreFoundation.framework/Versions/A/CoreFoundation are out of sync. Falling back to library file for linking.
ld: warning: text-based stub file /System/Library/Frameworks/CoreServices.framework/Versions/A/Frameworks/AE.framework/Versions/A/AE.tbd and library file /System/Library/Frameworks/CoreServices.framework/Versions/A/Frameworks/AE.framework/Versions/A/AE are out of sync. Falling back to library file for linking.
ld: warning: text-based stub file /System/Library/Frameworks/CoreServices.framework/Versions/A/Frameworks/LaunchServices.framework/Versions/A/LaunchServices.tbd and library file /System/Library/Frameworks/CoreServices.framework/Versions/A/Frameworks/LaunchServices.framework/Versions/A/LaunchServices are out of sync. Falling back to library file for linking.
ld: warning: text-based stub file /System/Library/Frameworks/CoreServices.framework/Versions/A/Frameworks/DictionaryServices.framework/Versions/A/DictionaryServices.tbd and library file /System/Library/Frameworks/CoreServices.framework/Versions/A/Frameworks/DictionaryServices.framework/Versions/A/DictionaryServices are out of sync. Falling back to library file for linking.
ld: warning: text-based stub file /System/Library/Frameworks/CoreServices.framework/Versions/A/Frameworks/SharedFileList.framework/Versions/A/SharedFileList.tbd and library file /System/Library/Frameworks/CoreServices.framework/Versions/A/Frameworks/SharedFileList.framework/Versions/A/SharedFileList are out of sync. Falling back to library file for linking.
ld: warning: object file (../../../libraries/osx/fmt/lib/libfmt.a(format.cc.o)) was built for newer OSX version (10.13) than being linked (10.12)
ld: warning: text-based stub file /System/Library/Frameworks//CoreFoundation.framework/CoreFoundation.tbd and library file /System/Library/Frameworks//CoreFoundation.framework/CoreFoundation are out of sync. Falling back to library file for linking.
builderr-release-macos.txt
/Applications/Xcode.app/Contents/Developer/Toolchains/XcodeDefault.xctoolchain/usr/bin/ranlib: file: ../../../binaries/system/libengine.a(precompiled.o) has no symbols
ld: warning: text-based stub file /System/Library/Frameworks//CoreAudio.framework/CoreAudio.tbd and library file /System/Library/Frameworks//CoreAudio.framework/CoreAudio are out of sync. Falling back to library file for linking.
ld: warning: text-based stub file /System/Library/Frameworks//AudioToolbox.framework/AudioToolbox.tbd and library file /System/Library/Frameworks//AudioToolbox.framework/AudioToolbox are out of sync. Falling back to library file for linking.
ld: warning: text-based stub file /System/Library/Frameworks//ForceFeedback.framework/ForceFeedback.tbd and library file /System/Library/Frameworks//ForceFeedback.framework/ForceFeedback are out of sync. Falling back to library file for linking.
ld: warning: text-based stub file /System/Library/Frameworks//CoreVideo.framework/CoreVideo.tbd and library file /System/Library/Frameworks//CoreVideo.framework/CoreVideo are out of sync. Falling back to library file for linking.
ld: warning: text-based stub file /System/Library/Frameworks//Cocoa.framework/Cocoa.tbd and library file /System/Library/Frameworks//Cocoa.framework/Cocoa are out of sync. Falling back to library file for linking.
ld: warning: text-based stub file /System/Library/Frameworks//IOKit.framework/IOKit.tbd and library file /System/Library/Frameworks//IOKit.framework/IOKit are out of sync. Falling back to library file for linking.
ld: warning: text-based stub file /System/Library/Frameworks//QuartzCore.framework/QuartzCore.tbd and library file /System/Library/Frameworks//QuartzCore.framework/QuartzCore are out of sync. Falling back to library file for linking.
ld: warning: text-based stub file /System/Library/Frameworks//Metal.framework/Metal.tbd and library file /System/Library/Frameworks//Metal.framework/Metal are out of sync. Falling back to library file for linking.
ld: warning: text-based stub file /System/Library/Frameworks//OpenGL.framework/OpenGL.tbd and library file /System/Library/Frameworks//OpenGL.framework/OpenGL are out of sync. Falling back to library file for linking.
ld: warning: text-based stub file /System/Library/Frameworks//Security.framework/Security.tbd and library file /System/Library/Frameworks//Security.framework/Security are out of sync. Falling back to library file for linking.
ld: warning: text-based stub file /System/Library/Frameworks//OpenAL.framework/OpenAL.tbd and library file /System/Library/Frameworks//OpenAL.framework/OpenAL are out of sync. Falling back to library file for linking.
ld: warning: text-based stub file /System/Library/Frameworks//ApplicationServices.framework/ApplicationServices.tbd and library file /System/Library/Frameworks//ApplicationServices.framework/ApplicationServices are out of sync. Falling back to library file for linking.
ld: warning: text-based stub file /System/Library/Frameworks//Cocoa.framework/Cocoa.tbd and library file /System/Library/Frameworks//Cocoa.framework/Cocoa are out of sync. Falling back to library file for linking.
ld: warning: text-based stub file /System/Library/Frameworks//CoreFoundation.framework/CoreFoundation.tbd and library file /System/Library/Frameworks//CoreFoundation.framework/CoreFoundation are out of sync. Falling back to library file for linking.
ld: warning: text-based stub file /System/Library/Frameworks//AppKit.framework/Versions/C/AppKit.tbd and library file /System/Library/Frameworks//AppKit.framework/Versions/C/AppKit are out of sync. Falling back to library file for linking.
ld: warning: text-based stub file /System/Library/Frameworks//CoreData.framework/Versions/A/CoreData.tbd and library file /System/Library/Frameworks//CoreData.framework/Versions/A/CoreData are out of sync. Falling back to library file for linking.
ld: warning: text-based stub file /System/Library/Frameworks/Carbon.framework/Versions/A/Frameworks/CommonPanels.framework/Versions/A/CommonPanels.tbd and library file /System/Library/Frameworks/Carbon.framework/Versions/A/Frameworks/CommonPanels.framework/Versions/A/CommonPanels are out of sync. Falling back to library file for linking.
ld: warning: text-based stub file /System/Library/Frameworks/Carbon.framework/Versions/A/Frameworks/HIToolbox.framework/Versions/A/HIToolbox.tbd and library file /System/Library/Frameworks/Carbon.framework/Versions/A/Frameworks/HIToolbox.framework/Versions/A/HIToolbox are out of sync. Falling back to library file for linking.
ld: warning: text-based stub file /System/Library/Frameworks/Carbon.framework/Versions/A/Frameworks/Help.framework/Versions/A/Help.tbd and library file /System/Library/Frameworks/Carbon.framework/Versions/A/Frameworks/Help.framework/Versions/A/Help are out of sync. Falling back to library file for linking.
ld: warning: text-based stub file /System/Library/Frameworks/Carbon.framework/Versions/A/Frameworks/ImageCapture.framework/Versions/A/ImageCapture.tbd and library file /System/Library/Frameworks/Carbon.framework/Versions/A/Frameworks/ImageCapture.framework/Versions/A/ImageCapture are out of sync. Falling back to library file for linking.
ld: warning: text-based stub file /System/Library/Frameworks/Carbon.framework/Versions/A/Frameworks/Ink.framework/Versions/A/Ink.tbd and library file /System/Library/Frameworks/Carbon.framework/Versions/A/Frameworks/Ink.framework/Versions/A/Ink are out of sync. Falling back to library file for linking.
ld: warning: text-based stub file /System/Library/Frameworks/Carbon.framework/Versions/A/Frameworks/OpenScripting.framework/Versions/A/OpenScripting.tbd and library file /System/Library/Frameworks/Carbon.framework/Versions/A/Frameworks/OpenScripting.framework/Versions/A/OpenScripting are out of sync. Falling back to library file for linking.
ld: warning: text-based stub file /System/Library/Frameworks/Carbon.framework/Versions/A/Frameworks/Print.framework/Versions/A/Print.tbd and library file /System/Library/Frameworks/Carbon.framework/Versions/A/Frameworks/Print.framework/Versions/A/Print are out of sync. Falling back to library file for linking.
ld: warning: text-based stub file /System/Library/Frameworks/Carbon.framework/Versions/A/Frameworks/SecurityHI.framework/Versions/A/SecurityHI.tbd and library file /System/Library/Frameworks/Carbon.framework/Versions/A/Frameworks/SecurityHI.framework/Versions/A/SecurityHI are out of sync. Falling back to library file for linking.
ld: warning: text-based stub file /System/Library/Frameworks/Carbon.framework/Versions/A/Frameworks/SpeechRecognition.framework/Versions/A/SpeechRecognition.tbd and library file /System/Library/Frameworks/Carbon.framework/Versions/A/Frameworks/SpeechRecognition.framework/Versions/A/SpeechRecognition are out of sync. Falling back to library file for linking.
ld: warning: text-based stub file /System/Library/Frameworks//CoreImage.framework/Versions/A/CoreImage.tbd and library file /System/Library/Frameworks//CoreImage.framework/Versions/A/CoreImage are out of sync. Falling back to library file for linking.
ld: warning: text-based stub file /System/Library/Frameworks/OpenGL.framework/Versions/A/Libraries/libGLU.tbd and library file /System/Library/Frameworks/OpenGL.framework/Versions/A/Libraries/libGLU.dylib are out of sync. Falling back to library file for linking.
ld: warning: text-based stub file /System/Library/Frameworks/OpenGL.framework/Versions/A/Libraries/libGL.tbd and library file /System/Library/Frameworks/OpenGL.framework/Versions/A/Libraries/libGL.dylib are out of sync. Falling back to library file for linking.
ld: warning: text-based stub file /System/Library/Frameworks//CoreGraphics.framework/Versions/A/CoreGraphics.tbd and library file /System/Library/Frameworks//CoreGraphics.framework/Versions/A/CoreGraphics are out of sync. Falling back to library file for linking.
ld: warning: text-based stub file /System/Library/Frameworks//CoreText.framework/Versions/A/CoreText.tbd and library file /System/Library/Frameworks//CoreText.framework/Versions/A/CoreText are out of sync. Falling back to library file for linking.
ld: warning: text-based stub file /System/Library/Frameworks//ImageIO.framework/Versions/A/ImageIO.tbd and library file /System/Library/Frameworks//ImageIO.framework/Versions/A/ImageIO are out of sync. Falling back to library file for linking.
ld: warning: text-based stub file /System/Library/Frameworks//ColorSync.framework/Versions/A/ColorSync.tbd and library file /System/Library/Frameworks//ColorSync.framework/Versions/A/ColorSync are out of sync. Falling back to library file for linking.
ld: warning: text-based stub file /System/Library/Frameworks/ApplicationServices.framework/Versions/A/Frameworks/ATS.framework/Versions/A/ATS.tbd and library file /System/Library/Frameworks/ApplicationServices.framework/Versions/A/Frameworks/ATS.framework/Versions/A/ATS are out of sync. Falling back to library file for linking.
ld: warning: text-based stub file /System/Library/Frameworks/ApplicationServices.framework/Versions/A/Frameworks/ColorSyncLegacy.framework/Versions/A/ColorSyncLegacy.tbd and library file /System/Library/Frameworks/ApplicationServices.framework/Versions/A/Frameworks/ColorSyncLegacy.framework/Versions/A/ColorSyncLegacy are out of sync. Falling back to library file for linking.
ld: warning: text-based stub file /System/Library/Frameworks//CoreServices.framework/Versions/A/CoreServices.tbd and library file /System/Library/Frameworks//CoreServices.framework/Versions/A/CoreServices are out of sync. Falling back to library file for linking.
ld: warning: text-based stub file /System/Library/Frameworks/ApplicationServices.framework/Versions/A/Frameworks/HIServices.framework/Versions/A/HIServices.tbd and library file /System/Library/Frameworks/ApplicationServices.framework/Versions/A/Frameworks/HIServices.framework/Versions/A/HIServices are out of sync. Falling back to library file for linking.
ld: warning: text-based stub file /System/Library/Frameworks/ApplicationServices.framework/Versions/A/Frameworks/LangAnalysis.framework/Versions/A/LangAnalysis.tbd and library file /System/Library/Frameworks/ApplicationServices.framework/Versions/A/Frameworks/LangAnalysis.framework/Versions/A/LangAnalysis are out of sync. Falling back to library file for linking.
ld: warning: text-based stub file /System/Library/Frameworks/ApplicationServices.framework/Versions/A/Frameworks/PrintCore.framework/Versions/A/PrintCore.tbd and library file /System/Library/Frameworks/ApplicationServices.framework/Versions/A/Frameworks/PrintCore.framework/Versions/A/PrintCore are out of sync. Falling back to library file for linking.
ld: warning: text-based stub file /System/Library/Frameworks/ApplicationServices.framework/Versions/A/Frameworks/QD.framework/Versions/A/QD.tbd and library file /System/Library/Frameworks/ApplicationServices.framework/Versions/A/Frameworks/QD.framework/Versions/A/QD are out of sync. Falling back to library file for linking.
ld: warning: text-based stub file /System/Library/Frameworks/ApplicationServices.framework/Versions/A/Frameworks/SpeechSynthesis.framework/Versions/A/SpeechSynthesis.tbd and library file /System/Library/Frameworks/ApplicationServices.framework/Versions/A/Frameworks/SpeechSynthesis.framework/Versions/A/SpeechSynthesis are out of sync. Falling back to library file for linking.
ld: warning: text-based stub file /System/Library/PrivateFrameworks/UIFoundation.framework/Versions/A/UIFoundation.tbd and library file /System/Library/PrivateFrameworks/UIFoundation.framework/Versions/A/UIFoundation are out of sync. Falling back to library file for linking.
ld: warning: text-based stub file /System/Library/Frameworks//Foundation.framework/Versions/C/Foundation.tbd and library file /System/Library/Frameworks//Foundation.framework/Versions/C/Foundation are out of sync. Falling back to library file for linking.
ld: warning: text-based stub file /System/Library/Frameworks//CFNetwork.framework/Versions/A/CFNetwork.tbd and library file /System/Library/Frameworks//CFNetwork.framework/Versions/A/CFNetwork are out of sync. Falling back to library file for linking.
ld: warning: text-based stub file /System/Library/Frameworks/CoreServices.framework/Versions/A/Frameworks/FSEvents.framework/Versions/A/FSEvents.tbd and library file /System/Library/Frameworks/CoreServices.framework/Versions/A/Frameworks/FSEvents.framework/Versions/A/FSEvents are out of sync. Falling back to library file for linking.
ld: warning: text-based stub file /System/Library/Frameworks/CoreServices.framework/Versions/A/Frameworks/CarbonCore.framework/Versions/A/CarbonCore.tbd and library file /System/Library/Frameworks/CoreServices.framework/Versions/A/Frameworks/CarbonCore.framework/Versions/A/CarbonCore are out of sync. Falling back to library file for linking.
ld: warning: text-based stub file /System/Library/Frameworks/CoreServices.framework/Versions/A/Frameworks/Metadata.framework/Versions/A/Metadata.tbd and library file /System/Library/Frameworks/CoreServices.framework/Versions/A/Frameworks/Metadata.framework/Versions/A/Metadata are out of sync. Falling back to library file for linking.
ld: warning: text-based stub file /System/Library/Frameworks/CoreServices.framework/Versions/A/Frameworks/OSServices.framework/Versions/A/OSServices.tbd and library file /System/Library/Frameworks/CoreServices.framework/Versions/A/Frameworks/OSServices.framework/Versions/A/OSServices are out of sync. Falling back to library file for linking.
ld: warning: text-based stub file /System/Library/Frameworks/CoreServices.framework/Versions/A/Frameworks/SearchKit.framework/Versions/A/SearchKit.tbd and library file /System/Library/Frameworks/CoreServices.framework/Versions/A/Frameworks/SearchKit.framework/Versions/A/SearchKit are out of sync. Falling back to library file for linking.
ld: warning: text-based stub file /System/Library/Frameworks/CoreServices.framework/Versions/A/Frameworks/AE.framework/Versions/A/AE.tbd and library file /System/Library/Frameworks/CoreServices.framework/Versions/A/Frameworks/AE.framework/Versions/A/AE are out of sync. Falling back to library file for linking.
ld: warning: text-based stub file /System/Library/Frameworks/CoreServices.framework/Versions/A/Frameworks/LaunchServices.framework/Versions/A/LaunchServices.tbd and library file /System/Library/Frameworks/CoreServices.framework/Versions/A/Frameworks/LaunchServices.framework/Versions/A/LaunchServices are out of sync. Falling back to library file for linking.
ld: warning: text-based stub file /System/Library/Frameworks/CoreServices.framework/Versions/A/Frameworks/DictionaryServices.framework/Versions/A/DictionaryServices.tbd and library file /System/Library/Frameworks/CoreServices.framework/Versions/A/Frameworks/DictionaryServices.framework/Versions/A/DictionaryServices are out of sync. Falling back to library file for linking.
ld: warning: text-based stub file /System/Library/Frameworks/CoreServices.framework/Versions/A/Frameworks/SharedFileList.framework/Versions/A/SharedFileList.tbd and library file /System/Library/Frameworks/CoreServices.framework/Versions/A/Frameworks/SharedFileList.framework/Versions/A/SharedFileList are out of sync. Falling back to library file for linking.
ld: warning: object file (../../../libraries/osx/fmt/lib/libfmt.a(format.cc.o)) was built for newer OSX version (10.13) than being linked (10.12)
ld: warning: text-based stub file /System/Library/Frameworks//CoreFoundation.framework/CoreFoundation.tbd and library file /System/Library/Frameworks//CoreFoundation.framework/CoreFoundation are out of sync. Falling back to library file for linking.
ld: warning: text-based stub file /System/Library/Frameworks//CoreAudio.framework/CoreAudio.tbd and library file /System/Library/Frameworks//CoreAudio.framework/CoreAudio are out of sync. Falling back to library file for linking.
ld: warning: text-based stub file /System/Library/Frameworks//AudioToolbox.framework/AudioToolbox.tbd and library file /System/Library/Frameworks//AudioToolbox.framework/AudioToolbox are out of sync. Falling back to library file for linking.
ld: warning: text-based stub file /System/Library/Frameworks//ForceFeedback.framework/ForceFeedback.tbd and library file /System/Library/Frameworks//ForceFeedback.framework/ForceFeedback are out of sync. Falling back to library file for linking.
ld: warning: text-based stub file /System/Library/Frameworks//CoreVideo.framework/CoreVideo.tbd and library file /System/Library/Frameworks//CoreVideo.framework/CoreVideo are out of sync. Falling back to library file for linking.
ld: warning: text-based stub file /System/Library/Frameworks//Cocoa.framework/Cocoa.tbd and library file /System/Library/Frameworks//Cocoa.framework/Cocoa are out of sync. Falling back to library file for linking.
ld: warning: text-based stub file /System/Library/Frameworks//IOKit.framework/IOKit.tbd and library file /System/Library/Frameworks//IOKit.framework/IOKit are out of sync. Falling back to library file for linking.
ld: warning: text-based stub file /System/Library/Frameworks//QuartzCore.framework/QuartzCore.tbd and library file /System/Library/Frameworks//QuartzCore.framework/QuartzCore are out of sync. Falling back to library file for linking.
ld: warning: text-based stub file /System/Library/Frameworks//Metal.framework/Metal.tbd and library file /System/Library/Frameworks//Metal.framework/Metal are out of sync. Falling back to library file for linking.
ld: warning: text-based stub file /System/Library/Frameworks//OpenGL.framework/OpenGL.tbd and library file /System/Library/Frameworks//OpenGL.framework/OpenGL are out of sync. Falling back to library file for linking.
ld: warning: text-based stub file /System/Library/Frameworks//Security.framework/Security.tbd and library file /System/Library/Frameworks//Security.framework/Security are out of sync. Falling back to library file for linking.
ld: warning: text-based stub file /System/Library/Frameworks//OpenAL.framework/OpenAL.tbd and library file /System/Library/Frameworks//OpenAL.framework/OpenAL are out of sync. Falling back to library file for linking.
ld: warning: text-based stub file /System/Library/Frameworks//AppKit.framework/Versions/C/AppKit.tbd and library file /System/Library/Frameworks//AppKit.framework/Versions/C/AppKit are out of sync. Falling back to library file for linking.
ld: warning: text-based stub file /System/Library/Frameworks//CoreData.framework/Versions/A/CoreData.tbd and library file /System/Library/Frameworks//CoreData.framework/Versions/A/CoreData are out of sync. Falling back to library file for linking.
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Link to build: https://jenkins.wildfiregames.com/job/macos-differential/4849/display/redirect

It would make it easier for potential reviewers to take a look at your patch if you would provide context. :)
(And set the repository to 0 A.D. when uploading.)

If it is what you mean, the context is that the multiplayer community is interested in the balance of the game, and map balancing is an important part of it. Since mainland is the most standard map played online, it is the first map getting changed in this patch.
The biggest cause of imbalance in multiplayer games is the availability of additionnal food near the player base. Because this food is faster to gather than say fields, and because it can facilitate strategies such as cavalry rushing, you can see there is an interest of having each player get a similar amount of food around his base.

For what it is worth, "imbalanced" res actually makes games much more fun for me. If everyone has the same food, especially if I know what type of food, then I can make a pretty good prediction as to whether or not I will be rushed. For example, look at games on African Plains. Everyone knows there is a ton of hunt. Everyone knows a lot of hunt means that a rush is likely. As a result, everyone makes a ton of men/cav early. Is that balanced? Sure. Do I know whether a rush is coming? Pretty close. Is that more fun than an unpredictable game? I don't think so. And I think the fact that African Plains is now a rarely played map reflects the fact that this isn't something that multiplayer community actually wants. This has been a compliant that has been repeated with respect to the balanced maps mod.

Personally, I would prefer if teams--not players-- had more balanced resources. That way the unpredictable, fun nature of the game is preserved while enhancing balance. Team balancing would also fix the 1v1 problem of imb resources because that would still be two different teams.

It would make it easier for potential reviewers to take a look at your patch if you would provide context. :)
(And set the repository to 0 A.D. when uploading.)

If it is what you mean, the context is that the multiplayer community is interested in the balance of the game, and map balancing is an important part of it. Since mainland is the most standard map played online, it is the first map getting changed in this patch.
The biggest cause of imbalance in multiplayer games is the availability of additionnal food near the player base. Because this food is faster to gather than say fields, and because it can facilitate strategies such as cavalry rushing, you can see there is an interest of having each player get a similar amount of food around his base.

For what it is worth, "imbalanced" res actually makes games much more fun for me. If everyone has the same food, especially if I know what type of food, then I can make a pretty good prediction as to whether or not I will be rushed. For example, look at games on African Plains. Everyone knows there is a ton of hunt. Everyone knows a lot of hunt means that a rush is likely. As a result, everyone makes a ton of men/cav early. Is that balanced? Sure. Do I know whether a rush is coming? Pretty close. Is that more fun than an unpredictable game? I don't think so. And I think the fact that African Plains is now a rarely played map reflects the fact that this isn't something that multiplayer community actually wants. This has been a compliant that has been repeated with respect to the balanced maps mod.

Personally, I would prefer if teams--not players-- had more balanced resources. That way the unpredictable, fun nature of the game is preserved while enhancing balance. Team balancing would also fix the 1v1 problem of imb resources because that would still be two different teams.

Right now, even if the total amount of food distributed is the same, the berry/hunt quantity is different for each player, so by looking at your own resources, you will be able to guess the food amount of your opponent, but you will not know if these are berries or hunt.
I also thought about the resource balancing by teams, but that would be more of a niche thing, only useful for the high level teamgames really, so I could have that as an option but it is not a priority. I still want to avoid the case where players (especially if less experienced) just get run over by a rush without being able to do anything due to not having resources.

Additionally, another way to make rushing less predictable in game, would be to have hunt being useful to things different than rush, say booming, or corralling.

Currently it is actually possible to make a pretty good boom using corrals, but it is quite risky, so only viable in pocket positions of teamgames. And right now it is quite hard to perform, I don't think the multiplayer community has the skills to do that.
If corralling is made more friendly for players, without having it be overpowered obviously, this could be a nice solution to this problem.

But even if we don't have a solution to this problem, I still think it's better to have balanced maps in the code. I don't know much about the criticisms about badosu's mod, as I wasn't really active at the time it was played, but I'm pretty sure the mod was quite popular.

I get what you’re saying. I just disagree. If you have more berries, then a rush of any type is more likely. If you have more hunt then a rush of any type is more likely. If I know how much food someone has then I know about how quick they can be, so I know when a pure boom p3 attack will come. This makes information much more uniform, which decreases the incentive to scout and makes the game much more predictable. I think those are both clearly bad changes that take excitement out of the game.

This won’t help weaker players overall. Weaker players will be helped 1/3 of the time, weaker players will be the same a 1/3 if the time, and weaker players will be worse off a 1/3 if the time. If anything, this helps stronger players who will never be at a position disadvantage, which means it is, again, more predictable.

All the other proposals you say are fine, but none of those exist now. Which means those proposals don’t do anything to address the concerns I am raising now.

Even if those proposals did exist, it doesn’t change the fact that this proposal would still let players know about how fast another will be because by min 7 or 8 I will know you haven’t rushed and therefore boomed. Thus, I will know about when a p3 attack will come and I can consequently prepare for it (by building walls or whatever if I think it is necessary).

Put simply, balancing by player instead of by team provides no benefit on average while introducing the negative predictability into the game.

If you have more berries, then a rush of any type is more likely. If you have more hunt then a rush of any type is more likely.

It is more likely... but it is far from guaranteed. So, if you play in this balanced map and you see you have 1 or 2 patches of berry other than the starting one, what are you going to do? Judge that a rush is more likely, decide to skip scouting, and make more men early and risk being at a disadvantage if the opponent decides to go full boom? Looks like scouting is still useful. Even without additional resources, scouting how much commitment an opponent has booming can still be useful, I have a good replay which shows that.

then I know about how quick they can be, so I know when a pure boom p3 attack will come

That is quite clearly because players don't know how to play the game. First of all they could very well decide not to attack immediately and tech into champions. They could decide to take a more defensive stance, and instead make another CC for economy, and wait for the enemy to attack (although I guess this strategy was more effective in a23/a24). And there are all the variants of p2 rushes, only experimented by Valihrant yet. Point is, I would rather have diversity in the different strategies available rather than different imbalanced timings. And even if this diversity was not viable/implemented yet, I will still want to merge balanced maps, because the goal is to make the game better (this also answers the point about corrals). If players knew how to play 0AD, like they do in AoE2, map imbalances would easily decide 50-80% of similar level games, not really the kind of diversity I want.

Plus, due to how many random maps exist in 0 A.D., I'm sure some of them are not going to receive this balance code, leaving more options.

We just aren’t going to agree here. In my opinion this just forces a particular type of game that is available (but not forced) when res are balanced by team instead of by player

. Point is, I would rather have diversity in the different strategies available rather than different imbalanced timings. And even if this diversity was not viable/implemented yet, I will still want to merge balanced maps, because the goal is to make the game better (this also answers the point about corrals). If players knew how to play 0AD, like they do in AoE2, map imbalances would easily decide 50-80% of similar level games, not really the kind of diversity I want.

With respect to the above, that gets solved balancing team res. Any imbalances within that should then balance out with proper team play (which itself is an aspect of the game).

In my opinion this just forces a particular type of game

It forces nothing as soon as the meta is different than (rush OR p3 boom with timing attack), which it arguably already is in a25

With respect to the above, that gets solved balancing team res. Any imbalances within that should then balance out with proper team play (which itself is an aspect of the game).

Keep in mind that I give a big importance in 1v1 games, which also applies to the argument you responded to. As I said before, I already considered and am open to team balancing, and I could implement it either as an option or even as the default if that is also the wish of other players.

From a technical standpoint, I guess you are trying to replicate AoE2 style distribution where the base resources of berries, 2 boars, etc. In that case, rather than making a swiss army knife of a function for N cases, it might be better to incorporate this into player placement.

The current player placement places stuff like chickens and whatnot, maybe the functionality doesn't need to be made so complex, and placement could just take distance thresholds for base resources.

This sounds awfully like replicating what base resources are meant to do.

The function already takes player base locations as a dependency so it obviously would semantically belong there.

Keep in mind that I give a big importance in 1v1 games, which also applies to the argument you responded to.

I don’t see how this is relevant—1v1s would still be balanced with “team res” balancing (instead of “player res” balancing) because both players in a 1v1 would be on different teams. Never mind the fact that 4v4 is more more popular than 1v1

To avoid debate on this, which erroneously presupposes a zero-sum game, I think it would just make more sense to have some sort of game filter option that applies to all maps and allows for (1) random balancing, (2) team res balancing, and (3) player res balancing. In other words, I don't see why we can't just add option instead of replacing old options that people are already happy with.

From a technical standpoint, I guess you are trying to replicate AoE2 style distribution where the base resources of berries, 2 boars, etc. In that case, rather than making a swiss army knife of a function for N cases, it might be better to incorporate this into player placement.

It is a bit different than how it is done in AoE2, AoE2 has always the same resources around, here they can be different and the total amount can vary, but the only requirement is that in the end they are balanced. Also right now this additionnal food is placed further than than current base resources and in the end (so this constrains less the placement of other map features). Now is it enough to justify it not being in player placement ... probably not. I'll look into it later.

Keep in mind that I give a big importance in 1v1 games, which also applies to the argument you responded to.

I don’t see how this is relevant—1v1s would still be balanced with “team res” balancing (instead of “player res” balancing) because both players in a 1v1 would be on different teams. Never mind the fact that 4v4 is more more popular than 1v1

I had to say it, because your first posts arguments were generic and applied to 1v1. This 50-80% stat for 1v1 would be very bad. Now why I think it applies to team games as well is again because of the less experienced player argument. For a TG where all players are approximately at the same level. My guess is that less experienced players generally have worse teamplay which is why I think player res balance still has an advantage here, they will not have a game ruined for bad reasons.

But as you said we can avoid debate and I could have a gamesetup option to choose the preferred way. It depends if dev team wants it, I don't want to make a feature if it isn't getting merged in the end, which is why I was conservative and made a very simple patch at first

Freagarach added a comment.EditedAug 28 2021, 6:36 AM

(With context I mean: https://trac.wildfiregames.com/wiki/SubmittingPatches#Makingsomechanges. But also thanks for the other context. ^^
Also, you set the repository correctly.)

marder added a subscriber: marder.Sep 8 2021, 6:57 PM
marder added a comment.Sep 8 2021, 7:03 PM

To throw it into the discussion here, because it seems related,
This map could solve balancing resources:
https://code.wildfiregames.com/D4053

Feldfeld updated this revision to Diff 18617.Sep 9 2021, 10:16 AM

Resource distribution has been moved to player.js, where base resources are done.

The team balance feature has been added, and there is now a dropdown in gamesetup to choose between 'no balance' (similar to before) 'player balance' and 'team balance'.
This dropdown setup should have 'no balance' as a default, so this should be the option taken in case the map was chosen randomly, I didn't check if that works yet.

Now that the nearby food is placed at the time of base placement, it means that map features which come later need to avoid it. In particular, for forests to avoid food is quite unnatural, the food objects could kind of create a hole in the forest, which is why forests are generally placed before.
As a solution, nearby forests could also be placed along with base placement, which was what I wanted to do anyway because forest balance is important. Note that the forest balance would be much simpler than the food, here the challenge would rather be to integrate it well with the rest of the map.

To throw it into the discussion here, because it seems related,
This map could solve balancing resources:
https://code.wildfiregames.com/D4053

This is an example of a map which is both balanced and quite unique. But my goal here is to give the options for existing maps to be balanced, so that players can choose between many maps which can feature balanced resources.

Feldfeld updated this revision to Diff 18618.Sep 9 2021, 10:46 AM
Feldfeld set the repository for this revision to rP 0 A.D. Public Repository.Sep 9 2021, 12:33 PM