Build failure - The Moirai have given mortals hearts that can endure.

Link to build: https://jenkins.wildfiregames.com/job/macos-differential/5727/display/redirect

Successful build - Chance fights ever on the side of the prudent.

Link to build: https://jenkins.wildfiregames.com/job/vs2015-differential/6819/display/redirect

Anything that is effective against champions is going to be too strong against CS. But I always thought the last nerf was too much. This, though, feels like a little too much of a buff (it's pretty significant at 20%, which actually has compounding effects when killing off armies). I would change to 11 instead of 12.

Edit: we can always adjust upwards if necessary, but this is a pretty large jump that I am worried will make the game quite turtle-ly.

In D4510#192574, @chrstgtr wrote:

Anything that is effective against champions is going to be too strong against CS. But I always thought the last nerf was too much. This, though, feels like a little too much of a buff (it's pretty significant at 20%, which actually has compounding effects when killing off armies). I would change to 11 instead of 12.

Edit: we can always adjust upwards if necessary, but this is a pretty large jump that I am worried will make the game quite turtle-ly.

I'm fine with 11 if you prefer to stay on the more cautious side.
Just to give a bit more of my thought process (I hope I calculated them right):

basic archer attack: 6.7 + techs (15% +15% +20%) -> 10.6329 | Repeat time 1000ms
champion archer attack: 13.5 +techs (15% +15% +20%) -> 21.4245 | Repeat time 1000ms
tower ungarrisoned: 12 | Repeat time 2000 -> 6 per 1000ms
tower garrisoned with techs: 12 * 6 * 1.4 -> 100.8 | Repeat time 2000 -> 50.4 per 1000ms -> 50.4/5 -> 10.08 damage per garrisoned solider.

So a fully garrisoned and upgraded tower would make five times the damage of a fully upgraded archer, which makes sense as you have to garrison five people in there.
Champion archer would still have a better damage per unit ratio.

That's why I thought 12 would still be ok in comparison. Another option could be to let towers also benefit from the archery techs?

But as I said, if you prefer 11 I can adjust the patch.

In D4510#192579, @marder wrote:

In D4510#192574, @chrstgtr wrote:

Anything that is effective against champions is going to be too strong against CS. But I always thought the last nerf was too much. This, though, feels like a little too much of a buff (it's pretty significant at 20%, which actually has compounding effects when killing off armies). I would change to 11 instead of 12.

Edit: we can always adjust upwards if necessary, but this is a pretty large jump that I am worried will make the game quite turtle-ly.

I'm fine with 11 if you prefer to stay on the more cautious side.
Just to give a bit more of my thought process (I hope I calculated them right):

basic archer attack: 6.7 + techs (15% +15% +20%) -> 10.6329 | Repeat time 1000ms
champion archer attack: 13.5 +techs (15% +15% +20%) -> 21.4245 | Repeat time 1000ms
tower ungarrisoned: 12 | Repeat time 2000 -> 6 per 1000ms
tower garrisoned with techs: 12 * 6 * 1.4 -> 100.8 | Repeat time 2000 -> 50.4 per 1000ms -> 50.4/5 -> 10.08 damage per garrisoned solider.

So a fully garrisoned and upgraded tower would make five times the damage of a fully upgraded archer, which makes sense as you have to garrison five people in there.
Champion archer would still have a better damage per unit ratio.

That's why I thought 12 would still be ok in comparison. Another option could be to let towers also benefit from the archery techs?

But as I said, if you prefer 11 I can adjust the patch.

Thanks for providing that background context--it actually makes me more convinced that it should be 11 instead of 12.

Towers et al. should have lower damage than the units that stand outside of them for several reasons. For example, garrisoned units can't die but units standing outside can and do. Units standing outside of towers also "overkill" units because they target the nearest enemy whereas towers do not have this problem. Now there is also some micro considerations on whether you should garrison your units or not because this dps discrepancy exists (i.e., there is currently a tradeoff choice between safety in garrisoning and full firepower by ungarrisoning. We shouldn't create situations that eliminate tradeoff considerations.

And, again, with respect to champs, that can never be balanced because CS and champs are just too different or units. So Towers will either be totally OP vs. CS or ineffective vs. champs. I don't see an easy way to fix that.

With all that said, I think we should always err on the side of caution unless we are 100% sure a change won't create something that is OP/broken. If we implement changes that create a broken system then the game can suddenly become unplayable because some unit or building is OP. Here, I think the more cautious approach is also closer to the perfect values.

Successful build - Chance fights ever on the side of the prudent.

Link to build: https://jenkins.wildfiregames.com/job/vs2015-differential/6821/display/redirect

Build failure - The Moirai have given mortals hearts that can endure.

Link to build: https://jenkins.wildfiregames.com/job/macos-differential/5729/display/redirect