What do you all think? @chrstgtr as well.

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In D5109#217367, @real_tabasco_sauce wrote:

What do you all think? @chrstgtr as well.

Seems fine. I don’t think it’ll be a huge change for most games but it might make rome harder to rebuild if they somehow lose their base in late game. But hard to know without testing. On that, this might be an item that makes more sense to try out in the community mod because it is so different.

In D5109#217380, @chrstgtr wrote:

In D5109#217367, @real_tabasco_sauce wrote:

What do you all think? @chrstgtr as well.

Seems fine. I don’t think it’ll be a huge change for most games but it might make rome harder to rebuild if they somehow lose their base in late game. But hard to know without testing. On that, this might be an item that makes more sense to try out in the community mod because it is so different.

Well, a lot of other civs received rather ambitious differentiation passes, so I would think it fine to add alongside the other differentiations, as long as there will be time to test these in an RC. Things have been very slow recently with the community mod, perhaps owing to vacation time.

But yeah you are right. The idea here is that rome becomes more of a dedicated professional army, so much of the citizen soldier capability is reduced. Over time, with the skirm/women eco susceptible to raiding, the roman economy should no longer be able to support legionaries and champions and would crumble.
To emphasize this point, I could add something like citizen soldiers -15% damage, if you think that is necessary for balance.

In D5109#217395, @real_tabasco_sauce wrote:

In D5109#217380, @chrstgtr wrote:

In D5109#217367, @real_tabasco_sauce wrote:

What do you all think? @chrstgtr as well.

Seems fine. I don’t think it’ll be a huge change for most games but it might make rome harder to rebuild if they somehow lose their base in late game. But hard to know without testing. On that, this might be an item that makes more sense to try out in the community mod because it is so different.

Well, a lot of other civs received rather ambitious differentiation passes, so I would think it fine to add alongside the other differentiations, as long as there will be time to test these in an RC. Things have been very slow recently with the community mod, perhaps owing to vacation time.

But yeah you are right. The idea here is that rome becomes more of a dedicated professional army, so much of the citizen soldier capability is reduced. Over time, with the skirm/women eco susceptible to raiding, the roman economy should no longer be able to support legionaries and champions and would crumble.
To emphasize this point, I could add something like citizen soldiers -15% damage, if you think that is necessary for balance.

Yeah, it’s just different in kind. Personally, I don’t think this will be as big of a change as others are making it out to be. And, I’m ok with this not being a major change if that’s what it turns out to be.

I’m not too worried about balance. The main concern would be totally rebuilding late game but that’s an edge case.

I would not nerf CS’s dmg.

I particularly like the idea.

Some changes I find interesting. Maybe keep all citizen units, but a gather rate penalty? Or else remove all, including veles and give legionnaires the ability to gather resources?
I find it more interesting in this case to remove champion extraordinarius when researching marian reforms, so maybe a tech of choice, between "normal" game or marian reforms?
I got some warnings and errors when trying to build catapult with legionnaires

In D5109#217412, @borg- wrote:

I particularly like the idea.

Some changes I find interesting. Maybe keep all citizen units, but a gather rate penalty? Or else remove all, including veles and give legionnaires the ability to gather resources?
I find it more interesting in this case to remove champion extraordinarius when researching marian reforms, so maybe a tech of choice, between "normal" game or marian reforms?
I got some warnings and errors when trying to build catapult with legionnaires

Well, I think keeping all CS units available but reducing gather rate somewhat defeats the point. The idea is that the legionaries are prioritized, but the lack of CS means the player won't be able to fully rely on them.
It seems that historically, the unit was dissolved after the reforms. So I think I'll remove this unit. What about the cavalry? I think the consular bodyguards should stay, but what about the CS cavalry? @chrstgtr thoughts here? Maybe just one of them?
Do you not get the errors when training them from the arsenal? The onager changes are in the onager patch.

In D5109#217417, @real_tabasco_sauce wrote:

It seems that historically, the unit was dissolved after the reforms. So I think I'll remove this unit. What about the cavalry? I think the consular bodyguards should stay, but what about the CS cavalry? @chrstgtr thoughts here? Maybe just one of them?

I generally think it’s a bad idea all of a civs range or melee. It makes a player really one-dimensional and easily countered. I would keep skirm cav.

In D5109#217434, @chrstgtr wrote:

In D5109#217417, @real_tabasco_sauce wrote:

It seems that historically, the unit was dissolved after the reforms. So I think I'll remove this unit. What about the cavalry? I think the consular bodyguards should stay, but what about the CS cavalry? @chrstgtr thoughts here? Maybe just one of them?

I generally think it’s a bad idea all of a civs range or melee. It makes a player really one-dimensional and easily countered. I would keep skirm cav.

Keep skirm cav and remove spear cav?

Keep skirm and at least one of the melee cav. I’m indifferent between keeping 1 or 2 of the melee cav.

Ok,
I'll get rid of the spear cavalry, but the consular bodyguards and javelin cavalry will remain (the jav cav is called 'allied cavalry' so its historically accurate too).
I might be able to simplify the tooltip too because of this.

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You could make the Jav Cav turn into Numidian Cavalry with merc stats. The Numidian cavalry became a small but elite corps of cavalry at this time. Maybe these Numidian Cav have a +10% bonus in accuracy and speed to make them distinct in combat stats from the Sociii Allied Cavalry they replace.

In D5109#217487, @wowgetoffyourcellphone wrote:

You could make the Jav Cav turn into Numidian Cavalry with merc stats. The Numidian cavalry became a small but elite corps of cavalry at this time. Maybe these Numidian Cav have a +10% bonus in accuracy and speed to make them distinct in combat stats from the Sociii Allied Cavalry they replace.

I thought it would be alright to leave the jav cav as it is called 'allied cavalry'. However, it might be interesting to bring in this unit as a mercenary with the reforms. Would it be weird to only add one mercenary? In that case, would it also make sense to also add a mercenary archer with these reforms? I know this is something certain players have been keen on for a while.
The mercenaries would further the 'professional' army dialogue as well as the army cost/eco weakness dynamic i mentioned earlier.
@borg- @chrstgtr thoughts?

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I'll be right there. This patch really is labor intensive, so I'm also willing to accept a simpler and less risky approach here. Maybe just a technology of choice between common champions or legionaries? If you choose legionaries, only the champion cavalry is removed, all other units remain as they are. I don't really care about that detail anymore. The difference with legionaries is that they would be champions that cost more than a traditional champion, but they can build structures and onagers. This choice also frees the centurions. I would actually be fine with that.

In D5109#217904, @borg- wrote:

I'll be right there. This patch really is labor intensive, so I'm also willing to accept a simpler and less risky approach here. Maybe just a technology of choice between common champions or legionaries? If you choose legionaries, only the champion cavalry is removed, all other units remain as they are. I don't really care about that detail anymore. The difference with legionaries is that they would be champions that cost more than a traditional champion, but they can build structures and onagers. This choice also frees the centurions. I would actually be fine with that.

Well, if any champion is removed by doing this via tech pair it should be the extraordinarii. Also, if legionaries are more expensive than a normal champion, you would only see like 10 to 15 of them, when you should be able to train a lot of them. As they are now, they are basically a skiritai unit that can build fewer buildings but costs much less. They also are the sole benefactor of the speed bonus from the centurions. That part of this patch works really well, and it shouldn't be changed.
Also, what do you mean by labor intensive?

I don't prefer the tech pair because of a couple reasons: 1. it implies a choice between two, when it was really an evolution of the army. 2. it forces the player to decide between full champions or no champions, which is not ideal for players, as they would still want access to some champions in either approach. I know as it is written it has a lot of moving parts 'under the hood', but for the player things will appear pretty intuitive.

In D5109#217906, @real_tabasco_sauce wrote:

I don't prefer the tech pair because of a couple reasons: 1. it implies a choice between two, when it was really an evolution of the army. 2. it forces the player to decide between full champions or no champions, which is not ideal for players, as they would still want access to some champions in either approach. I know as it is written it has a lot of moving parts 'under the hood', but for the player things will appear pretty intuitive.

Excuse the extraordinarius upgrading to centurion in the above pic, that is a mistake and is not in this patch.

You need to update your snv and the patch. There is already a new civ bonus, and legionary engineers are doubled.

If legionnaires are not champions, then it is not necessary to limit their buildings, they should be able to build everything.

In D5109#217908, @borg- wrote:

You need to update your snv and the patch. There is already a new civ bonus, and legionary engineers are doubled.

If legionnaires are not champions, then it is not necessary to limit their buildings, they should be able to build everything.

Hmm I agree, maybe its not necessary to limit buildings, but just add the onager as an option. Its more simple this way.
As for SVN, I cannot compile it do to an issue with compiling on macOS. Because I am testing by modding the RC, the new civ bonus doesn't show and legionary engineers is not yet deleted from rome.json as can be seen in the onager patch (D5114).

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@borg-
Any more thoughts on this patch and https://code.wildfiregames.com/D5114?
They are both working now. I had previously not included the packed actor by mistake.
The 'tooltip translation' warning will still be present. This is occurring with a lot of units in a27, so not sure what to do about it.

I got errors, probably civbonuses.

In D5109#218225, @borg- wrote:

I got errors, probably civbonuses.

Could you send me the mainlog.txt?

Probably cuz new Roman civ bônus. Need rebase

In D5109#218248, @borg- wrote:

Probably cuz new Roman civ bônus. Need rebase

It isn't. The new roman civ bonus is visible in the rome.json part of https://code.wildfiregames.com/D5114

 	"CivBonuses": [
 		{
 			"Name": "Fertility",
 			"History": "Rome was one of the most populous cities in the ancient world.",
 			"Description": "Women train from houses without the need to research Fertility Festival."
 		},
 		{
 			"Name": "Testudo Formation",
 			"History": "The Romans commonly used the Testudo or 'turtle' formation for defense: Legionaries were formed into hollow squares with twelve men on each side, standing so close together that their shields overlapped like fish scales.",
 			"Description": "Roman Legionaries can form a Testudo."
 		},
 		{
-			"Name": "Legionary Engineers",
-			"History": "",
-			"Description": "Battering Rams +20% attack damage. Stone Throwers +10% attack damage."
-		},
-		{
 			"Name": "Centurions",
 			"History": "Centurions were the officers responsible for a centuria, a group of 100 soldiers.",
 			"Description": "Promote Elite Rank Spearmen or Swordsmen to Champion Centurions."
 		}
 	],

Could you send me your mainlog.txt file?

In D5109#218249, @real_tabasco_sauce wrote:

Could you send me your mainlog.txt file?

Please only ask for interestinglog.html. :) Since that contains the errors and warnings, but the mainlog also has private information.

Without looking at the specific templates, you may need to replace="" or remove (-) the previous tech requirement.

In D5109#218329, @wowgetoffyourcellphone wrote:

Without looking at the specific templates, you may need to replace="" or remove (-) the previous tech requirement.

Ok so more than one tech requirement makes it a 'complex' requirement, needing a tooltip, and the check for tooltip existing isn't working as expected?
No worries, I can remove the other requirement techs when I fix @borg- 's error.

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I like the idea of the elite rank skirmisher. This will be convenient for the eco vs military might dynamic. If you can make an actor, perfect! As for the pizzaz, one idea is to give a different sound to the upgrade complete, maybe a wonder sound, maybe the sound when a champion building is built. As for cost, yeah maybe it should be a bit more prohibitive. I will make the changes in a couple of days.

It was the idea I initially had, to have an elite skmisher unit. To balance the economy, we can give these two units the power to gather res.
​

Catapult packed model is "empty".

In D5109#218510, @borg- wrote:

It was the idea I initially had, to have an elite skmisher unit. To balance the economy, we can give these two units the power to gather res.
​

Here's a radical idea: Perhaps since the Marian Reform is the big step toward creating a divide between the military and civilians, replace the "Female Cititzen" with a two-gendered Roman Citizen which has the mean average gathering stats between a female citizen and a citizen-soldier.

In D5109#218514, @borg- wrote:

Catapult packed model is "empty".

Meaning nothing is in the loaded for the cargo? its an empty wagon?

In D5109#218546, @real_tabasco_sauce wrote:

In D5109#218514, @borg- wrote:

Catapult packed model is "empty".

Meaning nothing is in the loaded for the cargo? its an empty wagon?

Yes.

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