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Change Steel Working attack bonus from additive to multiplicative
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Authored by temple on May 25 2017, 7:10 PM.

Details

Summary

Similar to the update to hero auras, I think the attack bonus here should be done multiplicatively rather than additively.

Currently it's +2 hack attack. Sword infantry have 5.5 attack (Mauryan sword cavalry 6.5), or 9.9 with the two blacksmith upgrades and will to fight (and even more for veteran units). I thought 20% seemed a reasonable change, equating to +1.1 without the other upgrades and +2.0 with the upgrades. (The Iberian monument was also changed from +2 to +20%.) Champion swordsmen have twice the attack, so they'll be boosted more.

Mauryan champion warriors are also swordsmen. Currently the +2 hack damage doesn't really change their effectiveness versus buildings, but +20% damage would. To keep the balance the same I reduced their base crush attack from 10.5 to 9.0. Then after steel working they'll be at 9.0 * 1.2 = 10.8, close to the original number.

These values feel right to me, but let me know what you think.

Test Plan

Are the changes reasonable and balanced?

Diff Detail

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Event Timeline

temple created this revision.May 25 2017, 7:10 PM
fatherbushido requested changes to this revision.May 25 2017, 7:46 PM
fatherbushido added a subscriber: fatherbushido.

Thanks for that one.
I would not change the crush damage.
And the multiplication will show all its benefit.

binaries/data/mods/public/simulation/data/technologies/attack_steel_working.json
13 ↗(On Diff #2185)

hack attack

16 ↗(On Diff #2185)

would not do that

binaries/data/mods/public/simulation/templates/units/maur_champion_infantry.xml
10 ↗(On Diff #2185)

would keep that one

This revision now requires changes to proceed.May 25 2017, 7:46 PM
temple updated this revision to Diff 2191.EditedMay 25 2017, 9:12 PM
temple edited edge metadata.

Updated per fatherbushido's comments: +20% hack attack, left warriors alone (they get no bonus).

elexis added a subscriber: elexis.May 26 2017, 1:56 AM

Why not let it affect yoddas as well?

In order to figure out whether the tech must be more expensive too, lets evaluate the difference in attack stats:
(Regular) sword champion infantry that mauryans and iberians have, have 11 Hack attack. So +2 is more like +25%.
Does anyone know how that +2 is applied? First all add operations are applied, then all multiplications?
Maybe it should be more expensive when comparing it to the other blacksmith upgrades.

binaries/data/mods/public/simulation/data/technologies/attack_steel_working.json
13 ↗(On Diff #2185)
technologies/trade_convoys_armor.json:	"tooltip": "Traders +2 Hack and Pierce armor levels.",
technologies/armor_infantry_hack_04.json:	"tooltip": "Champions +2 Hack Armor Levels, but also +10 Metal Cost.",
technologies/armor_cav_chamfron.json:	"tooltip": "Equip your cavalry mounts with armor. All Cavalry +1 Hack armor level.",
technologies/attack_cav_lance.json:	"tooltip": "Equip your melee cavalry with better weapons. Melee Cavalry +2 Hack Attack.",
technologies/armor_cav_02.json:	"tooltip": "Equip your cavalry mounts with armor. All Cavalry +1 Hack and Pierce armor level.",
technologies/armor_cav_01.json:	"tooltip": "Equip your cavalry mounts with armor. All Cavalry +1 Hack and Pierce armor level.",
technologies/armor_hero_01.json:	"tooltip": "All heroes +2 Hack Armor Levels and +2 Pierce Armor Levels, but also +50 Metal Cost.",
technologies/melee_inf_spearheads.json:	"tooltip": "All Spear units +2 hack attack.",
technologies/armor_infantry_02.json:	"tooltip": "All Infantry +1 Hack and Pierce Armor Level.",
technologies/hellenes/attack_inf_spearfighting.json:	"tooltip": "Spearmen +2 hack attack.",
technologies/armor_infantry_01.json~:	"tooltip": "All Infantry +1 Hack and Pierce Armor Level.",
technologies/siege_armor.json:	"tooltip": "All Siege weapons +2 Hack armor levels.",
technologies/armor_infantry_hack_01.json:	"tooltip": "All Infantry +1 Hack Armor Level.",
technologies/armor_infantry_01.json:	"tooltip": "All Infantry +1 Hack and Pierce Armor Level.",
technologies/armor_infantry_hack_02.json:	"tooltip": "All Infantry +1 Hack Armor Level.",
technologies/armor_infantry_hack_03.json:	"tooltip": "All Infantry +1 Hack Armor Level.",
technologies/melee_inf_sidearms.json:	"tooltip": "Melee infantry +1 hack attack.",

(besides 3 Metal, all other resources are in lowercase afaics)

fatherbushido added a comment.EditedMay 26 2017, 8:33 AM
In D552#22551, @elexis wrote:

Why not let it affect yoddas as well?

It affects them :) (It multiply 0 by something).
I suggest that to Temple to avoid complication and eternal discussion and nitpicking from players. That unit is visually (and from the stats pov) armed with a mace and not a sword.
One could say the metal tech could affect everything in metal and that the mace is perhaps in metal (but also arrows, spear, ...).
The description of the tech made me decide myself "Secret steel working techniques give sword blades distinctive and beautiful markings." so the flavour of that things is to affect only the "hack" damage (the "blade"). (The kind of tech we could have for Japanese katana).

Then we could remove the Sword class of that unit as suggested by Temple, but I won't invest that (as it would result to have to do other choice like giving them a new class name or another template... which would need also more discussions...)

In order to figure out whether the tech must be more expensive too, lets evaluate the difference in attack stats:
(Regular) sword champion infantry that mauryans and iberians have, have 11 Hack attack. So +2 is more like +25%.
Does anyone know how that +2 is applied? First all add operations are applied, then all multiplications?
Maybe it should be more expensive when comparing it to the other blacksmith upgrades.

I am fine with increasing the cost (That's one of the civ bonus / special tech of Mauryans and Iberians: we can think it should be cheaper than the standard techs, but on the other way the fact that they have it, is itself a bonus.)
Mult then Add for Tech then Mult then Add for Aura.

Cost suggestion?

temple added a comment.EditedMay 26 2017, 9:19 AM
In D552#22551, @elexis wrote:

Does anyone know how that +2 is applied? First all add operations are applied, then all multiplications?

I'm pretty sure in alpha21 the +2 was applied at the very end, but I also think when I was testing today the +2 was applied at the very start. But it's very late, and it's possible I'm not remembering correctly. I'd like all the attack and health bonuses to be done with multiplication, so that there isn't this ambiguity. (I'll probably give an opinion on cost tomorrow. For now I need to sleep.)

Another note: I saw other techs that had +1/2 attack or whatever, but they didn't seem to actually be techs that you could research in game? Otherwise I would've tried to change them too.

In D552#22646, @temple wrote:

I'm pretty sure in alpha21 the +2 was applied at the very end, but I also think when I was testing today the +2 was applied at the very start.

Mult then Add for Tech
then
Mult then Add for Aura.

I saw that comment but decided to say what I said anyway, because I was fairly sure it happened. Of course you're right, and what happened was during this time I was also looking at the Iberian monument, which gives an attack bonus. Its multiplicative aura was being applied after the additive tech.

In D552#22791, @temple wrote:

I saw that comment but decided to say what I said anyway, because I was fairly sure it happened. Of course you're right, and what happened was during this time I was also looking at the Iberian monument, which gives an attack bonus. Its multiplicative aura was being applied after the additive tech.

;-)

temple marked 3 inline comments as done.May 26 2017, 11:05 PM

I don't have a strong opinion about the cost. Other civs have cheap heroes that give an attack bonus to units, but Maurya and Iberia don't, so you could justify a relatively small cost that way.

fatherbushido accepted this revision.May 27 2017, 8:34 AM

(Waiting for another ack or not ack.)

This revision is now accepted and ready to land.May 27 2017, 8:34 AM
fatherbushido requested changes to this revision.May 27 2017, 8:37 AM
fatherbushido added inline comments.
binaries/data/mods/public/simulation/data/technologies/attack_steel_working.json
13 ↗(On Diff #2185)

oups I forgot, it seems you need to use Hack instead of hack for consistency (with the current in game tech)

This revision now requires changes to proceed.May 27 2017, 8:37 AM
temple updated this revision to Diff 2248.May 27 2017, 5:36 PM
temple edited edge metadata.
temple marked 2 inline comments as done.
fatherbushido accepted this revision.May 27 2017, 10:02 PM

Accepted as such.
I am also fine with possible cost changes.

This revision is now accepted and ready to land.May 27 2017, 10:02 PM
In D552#22870, @temple wrote:

I don't have a strong opinion about the cost. Other civs have cheap heroes that give an attack bonus to units, but Maurya and Iberia don't, so you could justify a relatively small cost that way.

Hero costs were increased in rP19691, so maybe now we should increase the cost of this tech? Currently 200w, 200m, so maybe change to 400w, 400m?
I also noticed that the other blacksmith techs each take 40 seconds to research, so I think it'd make sense to change this one from 60s to 40s as well.

This revision was automatically updated to reflect the committed changes.