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Implement the fishing boat garrison boost
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Authored by temple on Jun 19 2017, 4:35 AM.

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fatherbushido
Summary

The fishing boat tooltip says "Fish the waters for Food. Garrison a support or infantry unit inside to boost fishing rate." This patch implements that.

The question is how big and what kind of boost should it produce? Currently fishing boats have 1.8 f/s gather rate, 40f capacity, and 10 m/s walk speed. Of course their real gather rate depends on how far they have to travel. For example, fish 50m away from the dock requires a 100m round-trip, which takes 10s, plus 40/1.8 = 22s to gather the fish, so all told the real fishing rate in this case is 40/32 = 1.25 f/s. If the fish are twice as far away, then that's a 20s round-trip, so the real rate is 40/42 = 0.95 f/s. For comparison, berries are 1 f/s or 1.5 f/s with the "wicker baskets" technology (minus walking time) and full fields are 0.4 f/s (usually placed so there's no walking time). At the very least, garrisoning in a boat should add more than 0.4 f/s, otherwise we'd be better off farming with this unit. I think it should pay more than that, because there's micromanagement involved as well as a risk of dying to enemy ships. And fish, like berries, are a finite resource.

Here's a screenshot with one fishing boat slightly closer than 50m and another slightly farther than 100m (estimated using the round-trip times), just for reference.

If the bonus is an equal increase in rate and capacity, then it will take the same amount of time to gather the fish as before (since time = capacity/rate), so the real fishing rate increases by the same factor. I'm proposing a bonus of 80% per garrisoned unit, so an extra unit would effectively gather at a rate of 0.8 * 1.25 = 1 f/s for fish 50m away or 0.8 * 0.95 = 0.76 f/s for fish 100m away. I'm also proposing changing the fishing boat's garrison limit from one to five. Then a fully garrisoned boat would gather at a rate of 1 + 0.8*5 = 5 times their usual rate.

Why not just make more fishing boats, since they are 100% instead of 80%? They're cheap at 50w, but they take a relatively long 20s to make. Boats tend to run into each other, leading to inefficiency, and only three or four boats can gather from a fish at a time, although some can drop off resources while others gather. Currently there's nothing to do after the fish are exhausted, so eventually you have to delete your fishing boats.

I settled on a +80% gather rate and capacity and five max garrison, but let me know what you think. I also bumped the fishing boat's vision from 24 to 32 (to match women), because that was a bit ridiculous. The "fishing net" and "salting fish" techs both still work as you'd expect: +30% gather rate and +20f = +50% capacity.

I hope that this patch allows fishing to be a viable alternative to fields in the late early game or middle game, and that it makes water control slightly more important.

Test Plan

Let me know if the gather rate, capacity, and vision values seem reasonable.
Check that the garrison bonus is implemented correctly (I might not know what I'm doing).

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Event Timeline

temple created this revision.Jun 19 2017, 4:35 AM
temple updated this revision to Diff 2617.Jun 19 2017, 5:57 AM
temple edited the summary of this revision. (Show Details)

Changed the garrison class from "Support Infantry" to "Worker", so that champions, healers, traders, and worker elephants can't fish (since they can't gather resources). Cavalry still can't fish.

Also changed the values from 75% and four to 80% and five. There's not a huge difference between the two but I think five is a more natural number and it's probably better to lean towards the more generous side of the reasonable range, to reward people for trying something new.

elexis added a subscriber: elexis.Jun 19 2017, 10:21 AM

Could also be implemented as a garrison aura. Would have the advantage that we don't need to change any component logic (probably more in line) and the disadvantage to have to add the aura to all units that should affect the fishing ship.

Actually I tried the aura first. I forgot about it when writing up the summary, otherwise I would've mentioned it. It's nicer in that you can separate the gathering rate bonus from the capacity bonus, and even add a speed bonus for example. But the disadvantage as you said is that you have to apply it to every worker, and that seemed overkill to me because it would hardly ever be used (whereas "female inspiration" is used all the time).

When I tried the aura I wasn't yet considering increasing the garrison limit, and now I see there's a problem because of the fact that techs are applied before auras. Auras can be stacked, and to get the +80% gathering rate we'd want to either add 0.8 to BaseSpeed or add 0.8*1.8 = 1.44 f/s to Rates/food.fish, and to get +80% capacity we'd want to add 0.8*40 = 32f to Capacities/food. (With only one garrisoned unit, we could multiply by 1.8 instead of adding 0.8*whatever.)

The "fishing net" tech multiplies Rates/food.fish by 1.3. If we went the +1.44 f/s route, this +30% bonus would apply to the fishing boat first, 1.3*1.8 = 2.34 f/s, and then the aura would add 1.44 f/s for each garrisoned unit, rather that adding 1.3*1.44 = 1.87 f/s as we'd like it to. In this case we could go the other route and instead have the aura affect the BaseSpeed, and since the overall rate is BaseSpeed * Rates/food.fish, each +0.8 adjustment to the BaseSpeed will be hit by the +30% bonus to Rates/food.fish.

However, there is no "BaseCapacity", which means that the "salting fish" tech which adds +20f (+50%) capacity only affects the fishing boat and can't affect the garrison bonus. In the +80%/5 proposal a fully-garrisoned boat has capacity 200f, so the tech increases it to 220f rather than 300f. I don't see a way around this, since the aura has to be additive. I guess we could change "salting fish" to be +100f capacity, but that's an enormous boost to ungarrisoned boats.

I wonder why we discussed yesterday :/

I wonder why we discussed yesterday :/

Haha, I know you said it was abandoned, but then I thought about it more and started to really like the idea. (Before, I just noticed that it didn't work and added it to my list of "bugs"; I never thought about whether it was an interesting idea or not.)

mimo added a subscriber: mimo.Jun 19 2017, 7:40 PM

There was plenty of such propositions (garrison in markets to boost revenue, garrison in blabla to boost blabla, ...): imo they would be nice in a city-builder mod, but does not really fit with the game. I think it adds useless micro, which can be better done either by adding a new tech (other resources gatherers have several techs to improve their rates) or a fishing ship upgrade (although such upgrade would be better with new ship models). That may be fun the first game you play, but then looking after your ships to see which one you can boost by garisonning more units or from which one you can recover some units needed elsewhere would soon become boring, specially if you allow up to 5 units inside! you will soon only garrison units right when the ship is trained or never.
On the other way, the increase of vision range looks good.

About the aura. Hopefully I've explained why there would then be a problem with the "salting fish" technology. However, I noticed that increasing the capacity has the same effect on the real gather rate as increasing the boat's walking speed. So we could replace the +20f = +50% capacity boost with an equivalent increase in speed and call it "advanced oars/sails" or something. (Maybe that would be a nice tech for all ships.)

I think +50% speed is a big boost for the cost, so maybe +30% (or +20%, etc.) would be more reasonable. Fishing boats would then walk at 13 instead of 10. For reference, other walks speeds are: merchant 12, bireme 14, trireme 16, quinquereme 16, fire 17.5.

fatherbushido requested changes to this revision.Jun 20 2017, 7:54 PM

(what mimo said)
-> nuke the tooltip in a22

This revision now requires changes to proceed.Jun 20 2017, 7:54 PM
fatherbushido resigned from this revision.Jul 29 2017, 2:34 PM
temple abandoned this revision.Aug 28 2017, 4:43 PM