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[gameplay] disable training cavalry at civil centres
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Authored by Nescio on Sep 9 2017, 1:15 PM.

Details

Reviewers
borg-
goldie
Group Reviewers
Restricted Owners Package(Owns No Changed Paths)
Summary

Changes:

  • civil centres can no longer train cavalry
  • brit crannog can no longer train cavalry either
  • brit kennel is available in village phase (cf. pers Stables)
  • maur elephant stables is available in village phase (cf. pers Stables)
  • worker elephants can no longer be trained at maur civil centre

Unchanged:

  • military colonies (ptol, sele) can still train town phase mercenary cavalry
  • civs can still train cavalry in the village phase, at the barracks or stable

This is something occassionally mentioned on the forums and implemented in several mods, so apparently there is some demand for it.
Removing cavalry from civil centres has the advantage of somewhat delaying early cavalry rushes (because players have to construct a barracks first); it's also easier and more efficient than other proposals (e.g. introduce a corral technology requirement). Furthermore, it's more historically correct, because horses were kept on farms and meadows outside settlements and not in city centres.

Test Plan

Apply the patch, play-test a couple of games, agree this is an improvement.

Event Timeline

Nescio created this revision.Sep 9 2017, 1:15 PM
Owners added a subscriber: Restricted Owners Package.Sep 9 2017, 1:15 PM
Nescio added a comment.Sep 9 2017, 1:17 PM

Something else: the “Hellenistic metropolis” technology currently doubles health etc of both civic centres *and* military colonies. Is this as intended? Furthermore, it seems ptol and sele can build additional civic centres after they captured a second from another player.

Vulcan added a subscriber: Vulcan.Sep 9 2017, 2:03 PM

Build is green

Updating workspaces.
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Running release tests...
Running cxxtest tests (306 tests)..................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................OK!
Running debug tests...
Running cxxtest tests (306 tests)..................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................OK!
Checking XML files...

http://jenkins-master:8080/job/phabricator/2004/ for more details.

mimo added a subscriber: mimo.Sep 9 2017, 4:29 PM

I don't agree with that change. While comments on the forum may sometimes be useful, you must take them with some cautious as i have often the impression they come from people who have forgotten the simple pleasures of a game and are focused on their lobby ranting :) Being able to hunt well modelled animals during phase 1 in nice landscape using cav is one thing new comers do really enjoy a lot.
I agree that i don't play enough MP (as least not competitive ones) to appreciate if this cav rush is a real concern. If it really is, i would rather suggest to increase the production time of cav (12s is really small, it can be increased to 25s) with a new tech in corral to decrease it back. And if this increase in time in not enough to slow down cav rushes, maybe also adding a bit of metal (also removed by the tech).

Nescio added a comment.Sep 9 2017, 7:53 PM

This is still possible: players start with one cavalry unit and can train more at the barracks in the village phase, without time penalty. However, I fully understand your point. This patch serves a tiny but vocal minority; the silent majority doesn't care about cavalry rushes etc. Besides, people will always be complaining on the forums :)

If the developers are not interested in this patch, perfectly fine; if they change their mind, then here it is.

Personally I don't really care whether or not this one is implemented in the main game, although I would consider it a minor improvement. It's very easy to modify 0ad to my own tastes. The same applies to most of my other diff proposals. The only one I really hope will eventually be implemented in A23 is D888, because the way civbonuses are currently located prevents me from organizing my mod the way I like it, and this D888 solves this minor nuisance by implementing a systematic grouping.

elexis added a subscriber: elexis.Sep 9 2017, 8:15 PM

(I agree that skirmisher cavalry seems a bit too strong (accuracy thing) for dedicated players. But I'm not convinced either that the solution is to remove it from the CC. It should be viable to fight with all units in age 1, so I'd favor a balancing change on these units)

Grugnas added a subscriber: Grugnas.Sep 9 2017, 8:25 PM

Probably making available every "basic" unit from the civic center helps players to well understand type of workers and soldiers, thus I'd keep cavalry in the civic center.
Women are the main fruit and grain gatherers.
melee and ranged infantry units for general purpose from gathering to build military structures.
cavalry for scouting or gathering meat ( they are the fastest meat gatherer over there).

There are many mods out there meant to approach to the "early rush" issue in different ways and perhaps there are also some reasoning behind, or simply on replies of people interested to the argument. it is always a pleasure to discuss about balance. :)

I agree with some of the previous comments.
Myself, I don't believe that cavalry should be removed from the Civic Centre training list.
"Several mods" might be stretching the truth a bit thin as that basically means 2. (2 is not several)

The demand implied is mainly just a few of the louder people from what I gather, the majority of current and future players would probably disagree with such an unpleasant notion.
Things should be discussed more elsewhere before being submitted up here (at least for balance patches) since it is very hard to agree on something.

"Several mods" might be stretching the truth a bit thin as that basically means 2. (2 is not several)

“several: more than two but not many” The first three mods I checked on the forums (Ancient Empires, Delenda Est, 0abc) all have cavalry removed from the civil centre, so I think “several” is justified :)

The demand implied is mainly just a few of the louder people from what I gather, the majority of current and future players would probably disagree with such an unpleasant notion.

As I wrote earlier:

In D896#34967, @Nescio wrote:

This patch serves a tiny but vocal minority; the silent majority doesn't care about cavalry rushes etc. Besides, people will always be complaining on the forums :)

Again, I repeat, I don't really care whether or not this patch is implemented. If the concensus is that it would be an improvement, then here it is, if not, perfectly fine.

Nescio abandoned this revision.Dec 30 2018, 3:25 PM
Nescio reclaimed this revision.Dec 21 2019, 4:07 PM
Nescio updated this revision to Diff 10705.Dec 21 2019, 4:11 PM
Nescio edited the summary of this revision. (Show Details)
Nescio edited the test plan for this revision. (Show Details)

rebased

Successful build - Chance fights ever on the side of the prudent.

Link to build: https://jenkins.wildfiregames.com/job/vs2015-differential/835/display/redirect

Nescio added reviewers: Restricted Owners Package, borg-.Dec 21 2019, 4:29 PM

Successful build - Chance fights ever on the side of the prudent.

Link to build: https://jenkins.wildfiregames.com/job/docker-differential/1351/display/redirect

Nescio retitled this revision from disabled training cavalry at civil centres to [gameplay] disable training cavalry at civil centres.Dec 23 2019, 4:22 PM
goldie requested changes to this revision.Apr 13 2020, 10:02 PM
goldie added a subscriber: goldie.

If cavalry is removed from CC, then every civ should get special barracks or stable to make them. Or rushes will be gone. I don't like it until new rush mechanism is introduced

This revision now requires changes to proceed.Apr 13 2020, 10:02 PM
Nescio abandoned this revision.Apr 14 2020, 5:50 PM

This patch is unlikely to be committed in its current form (see also this forum post).