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athenian champion unit garrison aura
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Authored by Grugnas on Sep 12 2017, 4:30 PM.
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Summary

This proposal simply wants to add an aura to Athenian Marine untis.
Warships Walk Speed and Run Speed increases by 1% for each Marine Champion unit garrisoned into a Warship for a maximum of 35% for Trireme ( 30 units ) and 22% for Bireme ( 20 units ) when the ship is fully garrisoned.
EDIT: Most of hellenic warhips army was composed by hoplites, marines (mostly swordsmen) and archers. While Cretan Archer Mercenary are available also for other civs (like Macedonians and Ptolemies) seems more reasonable to have this aura to affect "Champions" not "Mercenary" units only.

Test Plan

Start a game, train Marine units by unlocking "Iphicretean Reforms" technology available in the Council Chamber then garrison Marine "Champion" not Mercenary units then garrison them in a Warship to see the aura effect.

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temple added a subscriber: temple.Sep 12 2017, 6:05 PM

Neat idea, I think I like it.

elexis added a subscriber: elexis.Sep 12 2017, 6:17 PM

Perhaps there were some units that were historically known to be badass in rowing?

Nescio added a subscriber: Nescio.EditedSep 12 2017, 6:42 PM

An interesting idea, I think I like it, however, I would prefer to limit the aura to the marine champions, and not apply it to those cheap Cretan mercenary archers (also because (other) Cretan mercenary archers are available to mace and ptol).

EDIT: And rename the aura to “marine” (without the “athen_” part), just in case someone wants to apply it to other factions and units in a future release or mod.

In D905#35234, @Nescio wrote:

An interesting idea, I think I like it, however, I would prefer to limit the aura to the marine champions, and not apply it to those cheap Cretan mercenary archers (also because (other) Cretan mercenary archers are available to mace and ptol).

I partially agree because you are right by saying that those archers aren't "Marine" units and the file name tricked me, also the fact that they are actually trained in docks only (couldn't find the reason why Cretan Merchenary Archers are available from docks after the research of "Iphicretean Reform" technology though) . Initially the "Marine" class has been thought for Themistocle aura, standing at D904.
The intent was to give a slight advantage ( not in damage ) to Athenians in sea fights where the only contribute units can give is to increase the max arrow count of the warships.
After some reading i found this from wiki:

A varying number of marines (epibatai), usually 10–20, were carried aboard for boarding actions. At the Battle of Salamis, each Athenian ship was recorded to have 14 hoplites and 4 archers (usually Scythian mercenaries) on board,[53] but Herodotus narrates that the Chiots had 40 hoplites on board at Lade[54] and that the Persian ships carried a similar number.

this could justify the
Standing at this reading would be reasonable to classify all not Mercenary infantry champions (thus: Spearman , Archer, Swordsman ) as Marine and let the aura apply to champions only (in that case the aura would become an athenian civ bonus).
Also,

EDIT: And rename the aura to “marine” (without the “athen_” part), just in case someone wants to apply it to other factions and units in a future release or mod.

The initial thought was to have different auras for Marine ( despite the only marine are the champions from Athene ) units only but yes, your statement makes sense. Thank you for pointing that out.

Besides, mercenaries also have the ability to build, something which champions can't, and which makes Athenian triremes great for colonizing islands.

Also, if you want to introduce a new “Marine” class (which is not necessary for the aura to work), I think it ought to be applied to the Persian javelin and sword cavalry trireme units as well (because they can be trained at ships, just like these two Athenian units), and it's better to make it simply a “Classes” (instead of “VisibleClasses”).

Grugnas added a comment.EditedSep 12 2017, 9:03 PM
In D905#35247, @Nescio wrote:

Also, if you want to introduce a new “Marine” class (which is not necessary for the aura to work)

it was until discovered that cretan mercenaries aren't the scythian archers who used to contribute to the great athenian navy army.

I think it ought to be applied to the Persian javelin and sword cavalry trireme units as well (because they can be trained at ships, just like these two Athenian units), and it's better to make it simply a “Classes” (instead of “VisibleClasses”).

EDIT: also someone could argue that cavalry isn't trained to row.
Athene defeated Persia on sea, thus applying the bonus to other civs than Athene would break its peculiarity ( it should be a civ bonus ).

To clarify: if this patch is implemented, I think the *aura* (which increases speed) ought to be applied to the Athenian marine champion only, and the *class* (which does nothing at all, as far as I understand) consistently to all units trained at ships.

In D905#35249, @Nescio wrote:

To clarify: if this patch is implemented, I think the *aura* (which increases speed) ought to be applied to the Athenian marine champion only, and the *class* (which does nothing at all, as far as I understand) consistently to all units trained at ships.

This "movement speed aura" is remotely based on Themistocle Athenian hero aura.
This helps to explain the Marine class: D904.
This is an athenian civ bonus, it shouldn't be applied to other civs.

So there is D903, D904, and D905, which are all related. Why not do everything in a single patch? That would have been less confusing, for me at least. And if not a single patch, then that class does not belong here in this marine aura patch. but in that Themistocles patch.

Anyway, it doesn't hurt to apply the Marine class also to the Persian cavalry, because the Athenians can't train them, and the Persians can't train Themistocles.

Besides, make it a non-visible class; I don't think it's important enough to display (I think there are already too many classes visible, which actually reduces their visibility; but that's just my personal point of view).

In D905#35253, @Nescio wrote:

So there is D903, D904, and D905, which are all related. Why not do everything in a single patch? That would have been less confusing, for me at least. And if not a single patch, then that class does not belong here in this marine aura patch. but in that Themistocles patch.

I splitted the patches because D903 is a proposed fix to a possible "abused" and perhaps unwanted effect that perhaps could be resolved in a better way by a more experienced dev, thus i spitted the Marine class part in the D904.
D905 ( this one ) is a proposal unrelated to the aura effect fix but uses the Marine class.

Anyway, it doesn't hurt to apply the Marine class also to the Persian cavalry, because the Athenians can't train them, and the Persians can't train Themistocles.

If you mean to use Marine class to distinguish ordinary units from special one ( actually Persian cavalry is special ( they even cost more metal ) ), then I agree. in that case i suppose i should add a requirement in the athen_marine technology in order to be specific for Athenian civ only (as i said this is intends to be a civ bonus related to the famous greek naval supremacy especially against Persian navy).

Nescio added a comment.EditedSep 12 2017, 11:35 PM

Sorry, I do not understand. Which technology do you mean? This “marine” aura does not need, nor use, your marine class. Just inserting:

<Auras datatype="tokens">
  units/marine
</Auras>

in the athen_champion_marine.xml file is sufficient to apply the units/marine.json aura. No civ requirement is necessary at all, since only the Athenians can train this Athenian champion unit.

The “Marine” class is completely unrelated to this marine aura (D905). You introduced the marine class (D903) to distinguish units trained at ships from other units, which is necessary for your proposed Themistocles aura (D904).

My suggestion is to apply a non-visible class:

<Classes datatype="tokens">Marine</Classes>

to all units trained at ships (i.e. athen_champion_marine.xml, athen_infantry_marine_archer_b.xml, pers_cavalry_javelinist_b_trireme.xml, pers_cavalry_swordsman_b_trireme.xml).

Grugnas added a comment.EditedSep 13 2017, 1:50 AM
In D905#35265, @Nescio wrote:

Sorry, I do not understand. Which technology do you mean? This “marine” aura does not need, nor use, your marine class. Just inserting:

<Auras datatype="tokens">
  units/marine
</Auras>

in the athen_champion_marine.xml file is sufficient to apply the units/marine.json aura. No civ requirement is necessary at all, since only the Athenians can train this Athenian champion unit.
The “Marine” class is completely unrelated to this marine aura (D905). You introduced the marine class (D903) to distinguish units trained at ships from other units, which is necessary for your proposed Themistocles aura (D904).

Sorry, I mean athen_marine aura. "athen_marine" name seems quite accurate because civ specific.
I am kinda convinced of having the aura to affect non mercenary champions only.
Casually i resolved the D904 with no need to introduce a new class, but would be nice to have all units templates trainable from ships sharing the same format to avoid confusion:
i.e. pers_cavalry_swordsman_b_trireme into pers_marine_cavalry_swordsman_b

Grugnas retitled this revision from athenian marine unit garrison aura to athenian champion unit garrison aura.Sep 13 2017, 2:29 AM
Grugnas edited the summary of this revision. (Show Details)
Grugnas edited the test plan for this revision. (Show Details)
Grugnas updated this revision to Diff 3651.Sep 13 2017, 2:33 AM

Despite the aura initial concept was mainly addressed to Cretan Mercenary Archers in order to equally distribute them in the Warships, now Champions not Mercenary units implement this aura.
Since champions are costly units and since they don't really give a nice contribute while garrisoned in the ships, I'd rise the aura effect from 1% to 2% for a total of 65% max movement speed for Trireme and ~45% for Bireme warships.

In D905#35291, @Grugnas wrote:

Despite the aura initial concept was mainly addressed to Cretan Mercenary Archers in order to equally distribute them in the Warships, now Champions not Mercenary units implement this aura.
Since champions are costly units and since they don't really give a nice contribute while garrisoned in the ships, I'd rise the aura effect from 1% to 2% for a total of 65% max movement speed for Trireme and ~45% for Bireme warships.

Sounds reasonable to me.

(Note that Athens can train two champions from the Stoa. I assume you don't want the bonus applied to them since Sparta can train them too.)

Don't you think 2% is too much? +22% and +35% are already huge bonuses, and 1.02^20=1.49% and 1.02^30=1.81 are ridiculous; why would a fully loaded trireme move +81% faster than one without passengers? I think the +1% aura bonus is already high enough.

(Although the aura is only applied to Athenian champions, thus making it effectively a kind of Athenian civ bonus, I still think it ought to be named “units/marine” (without the “civbonus_athen_” part), just in case someone wants to apply it to other factions and units in a future release or mod.)

Casually i resolved the D904 with no need to introduce a new class, but would be nice to have all units templates trainable from ships sharing the same format to avoid confusion:
i.e. pers_cavalry_swordsman_b_trireme into pers_marine_cavalry_swordsman_b

Good point! Done: D906

In D905#35314, @Nescio wrote:

Don't you think 2% is too much? +22% and +35% are already huge bonuses, and 1.02^20=1.49% and 1.02^30=1.81 are ridiculous; why would a fully loaded trireme move +81% faster than one without passengers? I think the +1% aura bonus is already high enough.

Perhaps 2% for champions only isn't too much because having 30 champions in a ship is quite risky. Despite champions perfomance on land, in naval games having sea monopoly is crucial and having 30 champions garrisoned in 1 ship only is counter productive.
quoting my self:

2% for a total of 65% max movement speed for Trireme and ~45% for Bireme warships.

(Although the aura is only applied to Athenian champions, thus making it effectively a kind of Athenian civ bonus, I still think it ought to be named “units/marine” (without the “civbonus_athen_” part), just in case someone wants to apply it to other factions and units in a future release or mod.)

I am still not convinced because all aura files address civs and if a modder wants to apply the same type of aura ( intended as garrison type affecting warships ), having a separate aura file where to eventually add additional effects would be more easy to mantain than implementing several auras for every affected unit.

Nescio added a comment.EditedSep 13 2017, 1:47 PM

quoting my self:

2% for a total of 65% max movement speed for Trireme and ~45% for Bireme warships.

Those numbers are wrong, 2% each for 30 units is actually more than twice the value with 1% each. Do the math, and keep in mind the bonus stacks (compound), then you get:

 x  1.01^x  1.02^x
 5  + 5.1%  +10.4%
10  +10.5%  +21.9%
15  +16.1%  +34.6%
20  +22.0%  +48.9%
25  +28.2%  +64.1%
30  +34.8%  +81.1%

Personally I think a 10% speed bonus is significant and can already make a difference. Besides, Athenian champions are infantry and also increase the number of arrows fired.

Grugnas added a comment.EditedSep 13 2017, 2:21 PM
In D905#35328, @Nescio wrote:

quoting my self:

2% for a total of 65% max movement speed for Trireme and ~45% for Bireme warships.

Those numbers are wrong, 2% each for 30 units is actually more than twice the value with 1% each. Do the math, and keep in mind the bonus stacks (compound), then you get:

 x  1.01^x  1.02^x
 5  + 5.1%  +10.4%
10  +10.5%  +21.9%
15  +16.1%  +34.6%
20  +22.0%  +48.9%
25  +28.2%  +64.1%
30  +34.8%  +81.1%

Personally I think a 10% speed bonus is significant and can already make a difference. Besides, Athenian champions are infantry and also increase the number of arrows fired.

You are totally right, my bad! When i did the math by trying different % i swear that i had different values in one of my experiments (yesterday i had to be really sleepy).
EDIT: My point was that having 1 ship with 30 champions garrisoned in is counter productive while 21.9% per ship garrisoned by 10 champions would have been much better ( +10.5% movement speed isn't a great improvement, that's the reason why cheaper cretan archer mercenary would have been a nice addition) . There isn't a max walk/run speed limiter though.