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[gameplay] prevent ships and siege engines from attacking fields
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Authored by Nescio on Dec 23 2019, 2:34 PM.

Details

Reviewers
borg-
Group Reviewers
Balancing
Summary

This patch restricts the attacks of ships and siege engines so they will no longer target fields. Fields are practically invulnerable to pierce damage and do not block movement, thus it makes much more sense to attack the units on them or the structures around them instead. AI behaviour is dumb, so this patch could help.
(For comparison, dogs can't attack structures, ships, and siege engines.)

See also D2782, D2802.

Test Plan

Apply the patch, play-test a couple of games, agree this is an improvement.

Event Timeline

Nescio created this revision.Dec 23 2019, 2:34 PM

Successful build - Chance fights ever on the side of the prudent.

Link to build: https://jenkins.wildfiregames.com/job/vs2015-differential/876/display/redirect

Successful build - Chance fights ever on the side of the prudent.

Link to build: https://jenkins.wildfiregames.com/job/docker-differential/1392/display/redirect

elexis added a subscriber: elexis.Dec 23 2019, 3:14 PM

I agree that siege engines should attack fields at last, but Im not sure it's a good idea to make it mpossible to destroy fields.

One can argue that the ram physically cannot break a field, but a catapult could, maybe. If the realism argument was taken, then it would also be impossible to attack it with infantry or cavalry (and for most buildings too I guess).
I guess salt was used to destroy fields and people pillaging the fields.

Disregarding the realism part, from a [gameplay] point of view I'd rather leave it possible to destroy the enemies fields:
For example rams can destroy fields rather quickly in comparison to a fort or civic center, so it can cause a lot of harm to an opponent if an enemy can just protect his civic center from 1 ram but cant leave the perimeter of the CC to destroy the ram protected by some units attacking fields that weren't placed in the perimeter of the CC.

AI behaviour is dumb, so this patch could help.

I don't know if it's the right approach to change the game in order to make a dumb AI play better.

I suppose with PreferredClasses one could prioritize some buildings already.

But I can only speak from experience that it's not such a good idea to for instance have siege engines / elephants prioritize defensive structures.

In Danubius gaia rams exclusively attack military structures, so placing one outpost in the forest means that rams will gather there and a "housewall" around a defensive structure makes an impenetrable line of defense to the unordered UnitAI rams.

So for Jebel Barkal 50% of the elephants focus on defensive structures and the other 50% focus on regular buildings, which was much more successful in cleaning playerbases. 40% defensive 60% regular would probably be better since there are many more regular structures - except for lategame where there are many walls at first leaving the other half of the elephants useless.

So I suppose one can't really express the intelligence in a template change.

Fields are practically invulnerable to pierce damage and do not block movement, thus it makes much more sense to attack the units on them or the structures around them instead

If the argument is that pierce damage doesnt deal damage to buildings with 90-99% pierce armor, then units dealing pierce damage (not only ships) should have PreferredClasses Unit.
If there are no units around, why not let the ship attack fields? If it makes no sense for the ship to attack a field, why does it make sense for the ship to attack any other structure?

binaries/data/mods/public/simulation/templates/template_unit_ship_fire.xml
13 ↗(On Diff #10761)

Fireships can't attack buildings on land (except shoreline buildings)

Wouldn't it mostly fix the issue to change 'Structure' to 'Structure+!Field'?

Nescio updated this revision to Diff 12706.Jul 16 2020, 11:36 AM
  • rebased
Owners added a subscriber: Restricted Owners Package.Jul 16 2020, 11:36 AM

For battering rams, see D2782/rP23753.
For fireships, see D2802.
For fishing boats, see rP18741.
For the other ships and siege engines, I still think preventing them from attacking fields is an improvement over the current situation.

Wouldn't it mostly fix the issue to change 'Structure' to 'Structure+!Field'?

What do you mean exactly?

Successful build - Chance fights ever on the side of the prudent.

Link to build: https://jenkins.wildfiregames.com/job/docker-differential/2659/display/redirect

If the problem is that Ships/Siege attacks Fields instead of better targets, we could be better served by having "PreferredClasses: Structure+!Field" for Siege. Ships shouldn't particularly attack fields at the moment.

If it actually is an issue that Fields can be attacked, I would perhaps recommend more preventing more unit types from attacking fields, such as all non-melee units.

In my opinion the problem is not that really that ships and siege engines attack fields when there are other targets around (you're right, that could have been solved with a preferred class). It is that they waste their time on field at all, given that:

  1. ships and siege engines have limited mobility;
  2. ships and siege engines tend to have high attack and vision range;
  3. ships and siege engines tend to have poor attack reload time;
  4. fields don't block movement;
  5. fields are not conquest critical.

If it actually is an issue that Fields can be attacked, I would perhaps recommend more preventing more unit types from attacking fields, such as all non-melee units.

I actually considered that, but decided against, because soldiers are much more mobile, and are capable of capturing structures, so it's not really an issue for them.

Nescio edited the summary of this revision. (Show Details)Jul 16 2020, 12:33 PM
wraitii added a subscriber: borg-.

@borg- what do you think? Do you prefer Restricted classes ? Or making them "not" preferred classes?

borg- added a comment.Aug 5 2020, 12:51 PM

@borg- what do you think? Do you prefer Restricted classes ? Or making them "not" preferred classes?

Restricted classes ofc.
Must be apply to fish ship too? Since can attack if guarrisoned.

Nescio added a comment.Aug 5 2020, 3:57 PM

Must be apply to fish ship too? Since can attack if guarrisoned.

What do you mean? Fishing boats have a melee attack and can only attack sea creatures (i.e. sharks and whales).

Nescio removed a reviewer: Restricted Owners Package.Aug 15 2020, 9:09 PM