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[gameplay] unify infantry walk speeds and vision
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Authored by Nescio on Jul 17 2020, 1:17 PM.

Details

Reviewers
borg-
Feldfeld
ValihrAnt
wraitii
Group Reviewers
Restricted Owners Package(Owns No Changed Paths)
Commits
rP23895: Unify infantry walking speed / vision.
Summary

This patch is an alternative to D2300 and a follow-up to D2596/rP23737 and D2628/rP23782.
Currently infantry walk speeds are rather inconsistent and depent on rank. E.g. elite spearmen are slower than their champion spearmen, whereas elite pikemen are faster than their champion counterparts. Likewise, ranged infantry vision range varied (b 80, a 84, e 88, c 80).
This patch implements the following:

  • All heroes have the same vision range, of 100. (This means no change for cavalry. Elephants get the same as their champion counterparts. Most infantry had 88, but swordsmen only 80.)
  • All non-hero infantry have the same vision range, of 80.
  • Unified infantry walk speed multipliers:
             {  b    ,  a    ,  e    ,  c  }         ( h )
javelineer : { 1.4   , 1.456 , 1.511 , 1.6 } → 1.2   ( 1 )
slinger    : { 1.2   , 1.256 , 1.311 ,  —  } → 1.2   ( — ) 
archer     : { 1.1   , 1.156 , 1.211 , 1.2 } → 1.2   ( 1 )
maceman    : { 1.1   , 1.156 , 1.211 , 1.4 } → 1     ( — )
axeman     : { 1.05  , 1.106 , 1.161 , 1.4 } → 1     ( 1 ← 1.05 )
swordsman  : { 1.05  , 1.106 , 1.161 , 1.4 } → 1     ( 1 ← 1.05 )
spearman   : { 0.95  , 1.006 , 1.061 , 1.3 } → 1     ( 1 )
pikeman    : { 0.8   , 0.856 , 0.911 , 0.8 } → 0.9   ( 1 ← 0.95 )

For comparison, rams have a walk speed multiplier of 0.8, support units of 1.

Test Plan

Check for mistakes and omissions. Approve of the concept. Agree with the proposed values.

Event Timeline

Nescio created this revision.Jul 17 2020, 1:17 PM
Owners added a subscriber: Restricted Owners Package.Jul 17 2020, 1:17 PM

Successful build - Chance fights ever on the side of the prudent.

Link to build: https://jenkins.wildfiregames.com/job/docker-differential/2682/display/redirect

borg- added a comment.Jul 17 2020, 1:36 PM

Pikemen 8 and swordman 1.05 are better.

If i understand, hero archer is slower than citizen/champion?

Pikemen 8 and swordman 1.05 are better.

Any particular reason why swordsmen must be faster than spearmen? It would mean an implicit bonus for civs starting with swordsmen in the village phase (e.g. iber, rome).
As for pikemen, they used to be much slower than other melee infantry; this patch reduces the gap, but they're still 10% slower, to compensate for their five additional armour levels (equivalent to c. +70% health). 0.9 is chosen to make them faster than siege engines.

If i understand, hero archer is slower than citizen/champion?

Yes, all infantry heroes have the same speed (1), regardless of type. Likewise, all cavalry heroes also have the same speed (2).

borg- added a comment.Jul 17 2020, 2:00 PM

Yes, all infantry heroes have the same speed (1), regardless of type. Likewise, all cavalry heroes also have the same speed (2).

Infantry Hero need movement speed based on faster citizen/champion unit or in formation he had slow down the units (see iphacrates + javelins).

borg- added a comment.Jul 17 2020, 2:03 PM

Any particular reason why swordsmen must be faster than spearmen? It would mean an implicit bonus for civs starting with swordsmen in the village phase (e.g. iber, rome).
As for pikemen, they used to be much slower than other melee infantry; this patch reduces the gap, but they're still 10% slower, to compensate for their five additional armour levels (equivalent to c. +70% health). 0.9 is chosen to make them faster than siege engines.

Well i can agree with swordsman (can be good in eco), however pikemen is a powerful unit as a tank, so speeding up can be a problem. How about 8.5?

How about 8.5?

(9 × 0.9 = 8.1)

wraitii added a subscriber: wraitii.EditedJul 17 2020, 2:37 PM

I think we must be wary of speed, as it leads to hidden eco bonuses (which can be rather substantial).
In particular, the different ranged units are very unequal, and an Archer civ will have a large eco bonus compared to a Javelineer civ. I'm not sure this is a problem or not, but it makes balancing rather tricky since not all civs have all units.

I don't think pikemen exist as citizen soldiers (?), so those are OK for me, but swordsmen and spearman CS will also possibly distort economy, and they serve somewhat different roles in the RockPaperScissors logic.


Edit: do we have somewhere a chart of which civs have which units?

borg- added a comment.Jul 17 2020, 2:45 PM

Economically, the patch does not bring major changes. In general it is better, cuz approach resource collection of pikemen/swordmen/spearmen. Faster Spearman can also be better against cavalry (this is very good).

The biggest change is in the speed of the champions. They are very fast, and this is also a problem for balancing.

@Nescio maybe need change fnatic too?

In D2884#124445, @borg- wrote:

Economically, the patch does not bring major changes. In general it is better, cuz approach resource collection of pikemen/swordmen/spearmen. Faster Spearman can also be better against cavalry (this is very good).

Are ranged units not preferred early-game for the eco bonus?

I think we must be wary of speed, as it leads to hidden eco bonuses (which can be rather substantial).
In particular, the different ranged units are very unequal, and an Archer civ will have a large eco bonus compared to a Javelineer civ. I'm not sure this is a problem or not, but it makes balancing rather tricky since not all civs have all units.

Are ranged units not preferred early-game for the eco bonus?

D2300 is a much simpler and systematic approach, but that was deemed controversial, hence this patch.

I don't think pikemen exist as citizen soldiers (?),

kush, mace, ptol, sele

Edit: do we have somewhere a chart of which civs have which units?

I vaguely recall seeing one, though I forgot where, and it's probably outdated anyway.

The biggest change is in the speed of the champions. They are very fast, and this is also a problem for balancing.

What do you mean? This patch gives them the same movement speed as their citizen counterparts.

@Nescio maybe need change fnatic too?

Maybe, but isn't the idea those are much faster because they're much easier to kill (reduced armour)?

D2300 is a much simpler and systematic approach, but that was deemed controversial, hence this patch.

Well, I would approve of it :P
My question was more in terms of the current meta.

I don't think pikemen exist as citizen soldiers (?),

kush, mace, ptol, sele

Àh, right, mostly "new" civs in my mind ;)
I think it might be problematic on its own that those civs have a citizen-soldier pikeman, when that is such a 'weird' unit compared to the sword or spearman. But that's for another topic.

borg- added a comment.EditedJul 17 2020, 3:39 PM
In D2884#124445, @borg- wrote:

Economically, the patch does not bring major changes. In general it is better, cuz approach resource collection of pikemen/swordmen/spearmen. Faster Spearman can also be better against cavalry (this is very good).

Are ranged units not preferred early-game for the eco bonus?

A little. Is chosen mainly because they are stronger in fights.

Well, I would approve of it :P

Yes, I know, I slightly prefer it too, at least it provides a cleaner starting point for differentiation in future patches.
Anyway, this patch cleans up things as well and is a clear improvement over the current status quo.

A little Is chosen mainly because they are stronger in fights.

You mean ranged units are better in fights? And then aren't Archer-civs better?

@Nescio maybe need change fnatic too?

Maybe, but isn't the idea those are much faster because they're much easier to kill (reduced armour)?

Without this patch champion javelineers have ×1.6 walk speed and fanatics ×1.82, with this patch both have ‘only’ ×1.4.

borg- added a comment.Jul 17 2020, 4:13 PM

A little Is chosen mainly because they are stronger in fights.

You mean ranged units are better in fights? And then aren't Archer-civs better?

Ranged units are 90% choice of current games.
No, javeins/slinger better than archer. Archer is weak in a23.

Ranged units are 90% choice of current games.
No, javeins/slinger better than archer. Archer is weak in a23.

Presumably not because javelineers have the highest infantry movement speed, but because javelineers inflict significantly more damage per second than other soldiers, except for elephants.
Anyway, back to this patch, is there anything that really needs changing?

Presumably not because javelineers have the highest infantry movement speed, but because javelineers inflict significantly more damage per second than other soldiers, except for elephants.

My concern with this patch is that if we later buff archers, we might need to reduce their walking speed - so why not do it right now?

borg- added a comment.Jul 17 2020, 5:25 PM

My concern with this patch is that if we later buff archers, we might need to reduce their walking speed - so why not do it right now?

Archers already buffed and slinger nerfed for a24.
Future adjustments to archers or any other unit, does not necessarily need to change the movement speed.
Anyway we need a better melee units, maybe decrease xp requeride for rank can be good solution.

borg- added a comment.EditedJul 17 2020, 5:27 PM

Anyway, back to this patch, is there anything that really needs changing?

Yep, heros need speed like faster unit (javelins) for no formation/aura problem.

Hero slower than units can make everyone slower and also auras like movement speed useless.

Anyway we need a better melee units, maybe decrease xp requeride for rank can be good solution

Swordsmen are alright, but spearmen have poor damage per second. But that's beyond the scope of this patch.

Yep, heros need speed like faster unit (javelins) for no formation/aura problema.

Hero infantry javelineer speed is unchanged (1). Giving them a higher speed means they'll move faster than their troops in mixed armies. Besides, there is only one javelineer hero with an aura affecting javelineers (Iphicrates), and that aura is global, not local.

borg- added a comment.Jul 17 2020, 6:03 PM

I think I got it wrong, sorry.
What is the move speed of the hero infantry in game?

I think I got it wrong, sorry.
What is the move speed of the hero infantry in game?


(Not changed by this patch.)

borg- added a comment.Jul 17 2020, 6:54 PM

Ok, tnx!!!

Well, anyway, this patch is a good improvement, besides being more realistic. Units with more armor are expected to be slower than fast.

borg- accepted this revision.Jul 18 2020, 4:52 PM
This revision is now accepted and ready to land.Jul 18 2020, 4:52 PM
wraitii accepted this revision.Jul 20 2020, 4:53 PM

I find the ranged unit speed difference somewhat suspect, likewise the pikeman template seems odd to me, but within its limited scope this diff is fine for me.

borg- added a comment.Jul 21 2020, 4:21 AM

Well, what about same speed for slinger and javelins?
Seems no make sense javelins faster than slinger, very similar units.
13 for both?

In D2884#125137, @borg- wrote:

Well, what about same speed for slinger and javelins?
Seems no make sense javelins faster than slinger, very similar units.
13 for both?

My question then would be why archers have 14? Why not all ranged units at the same value in the 12-13 range?

I find the ranged unit speed difference somewhat suspect, likewise the pikeman template seems odd to me, but within its limited scope this diff is fine for me.

Well, what about same speed for slinger and javelins?
Seems no make sense javelins faster than slinger, very similar units.
13 for both?

My question then would be why archers have 14? Why not all ranged units at the same value in the 12-13 range?

Given that opinions differ on what ought to be the movement speeds for various soldier types, I think it's best to do this patch as is, to get a clean state, and do further tweaking afterwards in separate patches.
(Also, archers have 1.1.)

Historically archers has better armour than slinger, so make sense slower.

Historically archers has better armour than slinger, so make sense slower.

Assyrian, Persian, and Chinese archers, yes. All other archers were unarmoured, though, just like slingers. Javelineers usually had shields, sometimes helmets, and occassionally body armour. However, I believe in 0 A.D. the status quo is that a greater attack range means a lower movement speed.

borg- added a comment.Jul 21 2020, 2:01 PM

Historically archers has better armour than slinger, so make sense slower.

Assyrian, Persian, and Chinese archers, yes. All other archers were unarmoured, though, just like slingers. Javelineers usually had shields, sometimes helmets, and occassionally body armour. However, I believe in 0 A.D. the status quo is that a greater attack range means a lower movement speed.

So it seems to make sense it has the same speed for infantry ranged. I agree with 12 slinger/jave/archer. It also decreases the advantages that javelin has in collecting resources and helps to decrease your overpower.

Players who like D2300 would also like it, I think.

So it seems to make sense it has the same speed for infantry ranged. I agree with 12 slinger/jave/archer. It also decreases the advantages that javelin has in collecting resources and helps to decrease your overpower.
Players who like D2300 would also like it, I think.

Well, I agree that's more realistic and wouldn't mind changing that here, though wouldn't that mean a severe reduction for javelineers, who right now have multipliers between 1.4 and 1.6?

borg- added a comment.EditedJul 21 2020, 2:23 PM

So it seems to make sense it has the same speed for infantry ranged. I agree with 12 slinger/jave/archer. It also decreases the advantages that javelin has in collecting resources and helps to decrease your overpower.
Players who like D2300 would also like it, I think.

Well, I agree that's more realistic and wouldn't mind changing that here, though wouldn't that mean a severe reduction for javelineers, who right now have multipliers between 1.4 and 1.6?

Is more realistic and much better for gameplay.
Only javelins have this mult.

Nescio updated this revision to Diff 12833.Jul 21 2020, 3:06 PM
Nescio edited the summary of this revision. (Show Details)
  • archer, slinger, javelineer to ×1.2, per @borg-

Successful build - Chance fights ever on the side of the prudent.

Link to build: https://jenkins.wildfiregames.com/job/docker-differential/2738/display/redirect

borg- accepted this revision.Jul 21 2020, 3:25 PM
Silier added a subscriber: Silier.Jul 21 2020, 4:52 PM

better armour does not mean slower,
I am in favor to have all infantry units with the same walking speed.
What should be different is running speed based on armour/weapon if too big.

borg- added a comment.Jul 21 2020, 5:44 PM

I am not against it, but it should also be applied to cavalry too, because it does not make sense for cavalry to have values so different from each other.

Well, anyway 12 for all ranged and increase spearmen/pike seems much better now. We can make future move speed changes in another patch.

However before we unify all infantry speed there is question how they will catch one another.

borg- added a comment.Jul 21 2020, 6:04 PM

@Nescio, need add champion_infantry_archer?

I am in favor to have all infantry units with the same walking speed.

See D2300 then.

However before we unify all infantry speed there is question how they will catch one another.

Currently ranged infantry, especially javelineers, are already much faster than melee infantry, so that is already a problem under the current situation. This patch merely reduces the difference. (D2300 removes it.)

@Nescio, need add champion_infantry_archer?

It already has ×1.2, see for yourself.

wraitii accepted this revision.Jul 25 2020, 10:44 AM

I think this is a solid move in the right direction.

This revision was automatically updated to reflect the committed changes.