Page MenuHomeWildfire Games

[gameplay] update siege techs.
ClosedPublic

Authored by borg- on Jul 14 2020, 2:29 AM.

Details

Summary

Siege techs are not used in the current meta, hardly see any player searching.
Techs are outdated for a23 and even more for a24, with the current changes in balance.
The benefits is below compared to cost, for example:

  • siege_cost_wood costs a total of 1250 res and give -20% wood cost for siege engines. Siege tower is the siege unit that costs more wood (500). 500/5=100x12=1200. Need to build 12 siege tower for technology pay yourself. Similar to siege_cost_metal.

The patch proposes more interesting technologies at an appropriate cost.

Test Plan

Check mistakes and possible improvements.

Diff Detail

Lint
Lint Skipped
Unit
Unit Tests Skipped

Event Timeline

borg- created this revision.Jul 14 2020, 2:29 AM
Nescio added a comment.EditedJul 14 2020, 6:14 PM

Personally I really dislike those cost technologies, not just the values, but the concept: why would identical entities suddenly cost less?
Rather than try fixing something that doesn't really work, have you considered simply deleting the existing technologies, and introducing new ones instead?
Some ideas:

  1. Reduced construction time for all siege engines.
  2. Increased armour or health for battering rams and siege towers (reuse siege_armor.json).
  3. Increased attack damage for battering rams (reuse siege_attack.json).
  4. Better (un)pack time for artillery.
  5. Lowered attack time for artillery.
  6. Lowered attack spread for artillery (reuse siege_bolt_accuracy.json).

Or combine or split the last three, one for bolt-shooters, one for stone-throwers.
[EDIT] I favour cheap technologies with small modifications, e.g. 10%.
And more importantly, don't make them available to all civs, more differentiation would be nice.

borg- added a comment.Jul 14 2020, 6:20 PM

Personally I really dislike those cost technologies, not just the values, but the concept: why would identical entities suddenly cost less?
Rather than try fixing something that doesn't really work, have you considered simply deleting the existing technologies, and introducing new ones instead?
Some ideas:

  1. Reduced construction time for all siege engines.
  2. Increased armour or health for battering rams and siege towers.
  3. Increased attack damage for battering rams.
  4. Better (un)pack time for artillery.
  5. Lowered attack time for artillery.
  6. Lowered attack spread for artillery.

Or combine or split the last three, one for bolt-shooters, one for stone-throwers.
[EDIT] I favour cheap technologies with small modifications, e.g. 10%.

Yes, i have this all techs in my mod. Ok i will work better for this patch and up a new patch in some days. Tnx!!

borg- planned changes to this revision.Jul 16 2020, 3:25 AM
borg- updated this revision to Diff 13125.Aug 7 2020, 3:28 AM
borg- edited the summary of this revision. (Show Details)
borg- retitled this revision from [gameplay] improve siege techs. to [gameplay] update siege techs..Aug 7 2020, 3:33 AM
Nescio added inline comments.Aug 7 2020, 4:36 PM
data/technologies/siege_accuracy.json
1

What happened to the siege_bolt_accuracy.json file?

4

Why the stone cost?

8–13

Wouldn't it make more sense to define this positively? i.e.
{ "civ": "athen" },
etc.

21

This is really harsh. If I understand correctly, spread works in both dimensions, so this would more than double artillery accuracy.

data/technologies/siege_armor.json
3

What is an “iron bath”? Could you come up with a better description? How about something like the following?
"Cover the exterior with iron plates to protect against fire and projectiles."

8–9

Why only these two?

15

Pluralize (i.e. +s).

17

Wouldn't +20% health be better?

data/technologies/siege_attack.json
2

Aren't all 0 A.D.'s rams capped already?

3

A better description is welcome.

8–12

See above.

18

[...] melee attack crush damage.
See style guide.

20

Although not necessary, perhaps insert hack and pierce lines too, for completeness?

data/technologies/siege_cost.json
4

Why the stone cost?

12

The build time reduction makes sense, but why the wood discount? It's still the same design? Perhaps remove that and keep just the time?
Otherwise "Loot/wood" is missing.

data/technologies/siege_packing.json
4

Why the stone cost?

8–13

See above.

21

This is quite effective!

templates/template_structure_military_arsenal.xml
55

Perhaps order them in a way that makes sense? e.g. siege_cost, ram_armor, etc.

borg- updated this revision to Diff 13144.Aug 8 2020, 12:14 AM
borg- marked 7 inline comments as done.

Up.

borg- edited the summary of this revision. (Show Details)Aug 8 2020, 12:14 AM

@borg-, could you clarify how exactly you arrived at the proposed costs of each technology?
Also, have you considered splitting the accuracy technology into two, one for bolt-shooters, the other for stone-throwers? Just wondering.

data/technologies/siege_armor.json
1

svn mv siege_armor.json siege_health.json

data/technologies/siege_attack.json
1–2

svn mv siege_attack.json siege_ram_attack.json

18

Since it now affects all three damage types, you can leave out the crush from the tooltip, i.e. [...] melee attack damage.

data/technologies/siege_cost.json
10–15

Personally I'd still favour only the time reduction, without the wood cost and loot.

borg- edited reviewers, added: Balancing; removed: Lionkanzen, Feldfeld, Nescio.Aug 29 2020, 1:42 AM
borg- edited subscribers, added: Balancing; removed: Lionkanzen, Feldfeld, Nescio.
borg- added a subscriber: Nescio.Jan 15 2021, 2:58 AM

@Nescio, if you want to command this patch it’s all yours.
It can be a great addition to D2494.

data/technologies/siege_accuracy.json
4

It seems to me fair some technologies also costing stone and not just wood and metal.

8–13

For some techs yes, for others not, I kept the negative standard for all.

21

This is really harsh. If I understand correctly, spread works in both dimensions, so this would more than double artillery accuracy.

New value -25%.

data/technologies/siege_armor.json
8–9

Are the only two civilizations that have no ram and siege tower

data/technologies/siege_attack.json
2

Gaul, brit, iber no

3

Suggestion?

data/technologies/siege_cost.json
4

New value

12

Only build time does not appear attractive enough tech.

data/technologies/siege_packing.json
21

New value -40%

borg- updated this revision to Diff 15499.Jan 19 2021, 2:53 AM
borg- edited the summary of this revision. (Show Details)
borg- edited subscribers, added: Freagarach, wraitii; removed: Balancing.

Rebase

wraitii added inline comments.Jan 19 2021, 8:22 AM
binaries/data/mods/public/simulation/data/technologies/siege_build_time.json
11 ↗(On Diff #15499)

Incorrect tooltip

borg- updated this revision to Diff 15549.Jan 20 2021, 1:50 AM

Correct tooltip per @wraitii

Feldfeld accepted this revision.Jan 20 2021, 9:17 AM

Indeed as of right now siege technologies are almost never researched. Looking at the modifications the new values seem good, nothing will be broken.

This revision is now accepted and ready to land.Jan 20 2021, 9:17 AM
Freagarach set the repository for this revision to rP 0 A.D. Public Repository.Jan 20 2021, 9:22 AM

The one committing this (might be me, depends on time) mind to fix the indentation.

This revision was automatically updated to reflect the committed changes.
Owners added a subscriber: Restricted Owners Package.Jan 20 2021, 10:44 AM