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Nerf Fireships
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Authored by elexis on Apr 27 2017, 12:38 PM.

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Summary

Iberian fireships are considered by numerous players as overpowered, because most maps have lots of wood and contrary to regular warships, these don't cost metal but wood only,
while having a very high damage output.

The crush damage of fireships makes it very easy to destroy all enemy docks.
If the enemy has no more docks, the naval warfare is most often lost unrecoverably.

Current stats:

Fireship:

Attack: 10 pierce 10 hack 10 crush, 10 times per second = 100 pierce 100 crush 100 hack / sec
Attack considering armor of fully upgraded medium warships: 200 * 0.41 + 100 * 0.19 = 101 / sec -> 16 seconds until destruction (1600HP)
Attack on a casual dock: 100 * 0.12 + 100 * 0.03 + 100 * 0.73 = 88/sec -> 6 seconds until destruction (500HP)
Cost: 200 wood
Lifespan: 500HP / -3HP/sec = 166 seconds
Attack / cost: 1.5 hackpiercecrush / 1 wood

Medium Warship:

Attack: 35 pierce * 13 arrows every 2 seconds = 227 pierce / sec
Attack on warships: 227 * 0.19 / sec = 43/sec -> 37 seconds until destruction
Attack on docks: 227 * 0.03 / sec = 6.81/sec -> 73 seconds until destruction
Cost: 150 wood, 150 metal (+ 500 food + 500 wood) = 650 wood 650 food 150 metal
Attack / cost: 0.15 pierce / 1 foodwoodmetal

So I suggest to reduce the crush damage, so that it will take significantly longer to destroy docks and a bit longer to destroy ships.
We must be careful to not nerf too much, otherwise they will not be used anymore at all, since garrisoned ships have the significant advantage of
not decaying, having much more health and being able to harass and capture things.

Currently fireships also move faster than warships, which can likely stay as is.

Test Plan

Produce some fireships and medium warships and docks and let them fight against each other. Determine whether they are still economically useful with the new statistics.
Press Alt+D in singleplayer mode on a naval map (like english channel) to switch the perspective to an enemy player.

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Event Timeline

elexis created this revision.Apr 27 2017, 12:38 PM

Can I add my dog as reviewer?

Can I add my dog as reviewer?

If he has an account and is able to do some testing, yes

Vulcan added a subscriber: Vulcan.Apr 27 2017, 1:23 PM

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scythetwirler requested changes to this revision.Apr 27 2017, 9:06 PM
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Maybe increase repeatTie/prepareTime and decrease Hack and Pierce attack? Crush should be the primary damage as both crush and fire should be the most effective against structures.

This revision now requires changes to proceed.Apr 27 2017, 9:06 PM

Maybe increase repeatTie/prepareTime and decrease Hack and Pierce attack? Crush should be the primary damage as both crush and fire should be the most effective against structures.

I thought it is not intended to quickly and cheaply destroy all enemy docks.
How is the enemy supposed to recover in case he lost all docks and they can cheaply be destroyed again?

It should be possible to keep the naval control once all docks are vanished, but it shouldn't be trivial IMO

Perhaps reduce HP of the fire ship? It doesn't sound unreasonable that a dock is vulnerable to fire and may require extra defenses around the dock if an opponent has Iberians.

Perhaps reduce HP of the fire ship? It doesn't sound unreasonable that a dock is vulnerable to fire and may require extra defenses around the dock if an opponent has Iberians.

Certainly agree with that, having fireships should be terrifying, but there should also be some way to counter the unit.
If the dock is gone in 15 second, towers probably won't be that efficient. Currently the best ship counter are archers on land, so if we would increase ship pierce armor to avoid that, ships would also become impenetrable by tower arrows.
But if changing the health, repeat time, hack or pierce attack is ok, we can come up with something.
I guess if the enemy is iberian, try to not lose docks and spam ships quicker than the enemy

fatherbushido added a comment.EditedApr 28 2017, 7:03 AM

My dog just reminded me there is "WalkSpeed".

(with the (annoying?) fact that it could never reach a moving ship in a open sea).

Grugnas edited edge metadata.EditedApr 28 2017, 12:13 PM

I'd say to increase the training time (20 seconds compared to 40 seconds for a medium warship is clear that fireship easly outnumber any other warship on sea) and decrease the pierce armor from 10 to 7 or 8 in order to counter them easly in any situation with a couple of garrisoned ships. Fireships need high mobility in order to deal the most damage before they reach 0 hp and sink and probably even the damage is ok (the damage dealt is related to the hp fireship loses per seconds i guess).

OFF-TOPIC: i think that buildings deserve higher pierce armor (the average building pierce armor is 30 while a wooden catapult has 50), this would prevent champion skirmishers from destroying buildings without the help of any siege and would decrease the damage fireships will deal to docks

Asked borg- in the lobby and he said he thinks the ships are okay because one can just flee on the open sea. But that doesn't completely apply to maps that don't have an open sea and cases where the iberian enemy team has a fleet too.
It should just be a slight nerf, not a lobotomy.

My dog just reminded me there is "WalkSpeed".
(with the (annoying?) fact that it could never reach a moving ship in a open sea).

Agree as mentioned in the summary

I'd say to increase the training time (20 seconds compared to 40 seconds for a medium warship is clear that fireship easly outnumber any other warship on sea)

Indeed I didn't compare the training times and this sounds like a useful angle without touching their damage output or health output
Perhaps 35 is sufficient already

and decrease the pierce armor from 10 to 7 or 8 in order to counter them easly in any situation with a couple of garrisoned ships.

That's where the testing comes into play. Gotta be careful with the nerf, otherwise they might become useless
Also the vulnerability towards archers and towers would become worse in case we go with that.

@scythetwirler But is it intended that a fireship destroys a dock in 30 seconds (2500 HP not 500 as mentione in the summary) while a fully garrisoned warship needs more than 6 minutes?

elexis updated this revision to Diff 1507.Apr 28 2017, 1:54 PM
elexis edited edge metadata.

Reduced crush damage from 10 to 6 instead of 10 to 3 and increase buildtime by 50%

Reducing speed has many advantage and is more subtle as it looks.

  • it makes them usefull against a stack of ship but useless to attack moving ship in open see
  • it solve the dock issue in a indirect way as a ship will never reach the opponent dock with a decent health

There are other things unrelated we could explore.

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I think target time for a single fireship to destroy a dock should be around 15-25 seconds.

elexis updated this revision to Diff 1514.Apr 28 2017, 6:49 PM

Revert crush damage nerf, increase buildtime from the original 20 to 35 instead of 30.

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Hannibal_Barca edited edge metadata.EditedApr 29 2017, 4:39 PM

I would suggest something in-between to the previously suggested changes.
After hearing several suggestions such as adding a 50 stone or metal cost, lowering crush, reducing speed or HP, increasing train time and lowering speed, I might as well post my own suggestion. ;)
As a metal/stone cost isn't really justified (despite heroic attempts by suggester to justify), nor a reduce in crush, we should try to find something logical.
My suggestions:
1) Increase cost to 350 wood

Explanation: For a fire ship a much larger amount of wood is needed to sustain a sizable fire for a reasonable time.
Reason: Currently at 200 wood, these ships are spammable and very useful (OP). With a cost of 350 wood, a batch of 5 now costs 1750 wood which is already a large sum.

2) Increase build time to 30 seconds

Explanation: takes time to fill up a ship with combustibles.
Reason: At the current training time fire ships are built very fast, therefore allowing the iberian player to quickly gain total control over the water. Increasing this time to 30s won't make them less attractive but instead require more time or more docks.

3) Increase decay rate. (maybe double)

Explanation: A huge, blazing fire will quickly "eat" through the hull of the ship, causing it to sink.
Reason: Currently players can afford to idle their fire ships for some time while building more of them. Increasing the decay rate won't down them too fast but incentivize people to train batches of them and use them fast and wisely.

These nerfs will make Iberian fire ships a nice-to-have yet not too OP unit, giving all players a chance to control the water. With a cost, build and decay increase, players will now have to train longer-training batches and use them fast or just "waste" the resources.

fatherbushido accepted this revision.Apr 29 2017, 5:31 PM

I would be for finishing/reviewing continuous damage patch :-)
Until that my opinion is decreasing speed.
Else decreasing hp, increasing rate, increasing buildtime, increasing wood cost (or another cost) are all good options.

elexis edited the summary of this revision. (Show Details)Apr 29 2017, 7:29 PM
elexis updated this revision to Diff 1540.Apr 29 2017, 7:31 PM
elexis edited the summary of this revision. (Show Details)

Double decay rate, so that the lifespan becomes 1min 23sec instead of the original 2min 46sec.
Increase train time form 20 to the 30.
Increase wood cost from 200 to 300.

As proposed by Hannibal_Barca.

The ship now has 50 seconds to move around and then kill one dock,
or enough time to almost take out three docks that are close.
The cost is still much smaller than the one of garrisoned war ships.
Spamming is not as easy anymore, but in lategame one can build just more docks, so it's not nerfing too hard.

fatherbushido accepted this revision.Apr 29 2017, 8:57 PM

You can also put them at phase 3 to not kill naval war.

elexis added a comment.EditedApr 29 2017, 9:54 PM

You can also put them at phase 3 to not kill naval war.

(21:28:53) elexis@lobby.wildfiregames.com/Legit 0 A.D. client: ok with fireships age 3?
(21:44:31) hannibal_baraq@lobby.wildfiregames.com: wasnt nerf enough?
(21:45:10) elexis@lobby.wildfiregames.com/Legit 0 A.D. client: want or want not?
(21:45:18) elexis@lobby.wildfiregames.com/Legit 0 A.D. client: me no care
(21:45:50) hannibal_baraq@lobby.wildfiregames.com: no

Some IRC discussions:

(19:42:57) causative: in broodwar there is a unit called the "scourge" which an exploding flying unit with low HP but high damage, what if the fireship was like that?  so it has an extremely high attack that also reflects on itself
(19:43:28) causative: with low enough hp that it can be killed before contact usually
(19:44:00) causative: so if you can actually get them in contact they are devastating, but you need to block with other ships for that to happen
(19:47:13) FeXoR: https://play0ad.com/ ("home" of the homepage) doesn't contain a description of what 0 A.D. is ;/
(19:50:46) FeXoR: causative: "We put a strong emphasis on historical accuracy while developing 0 A.D." ...and I doubt that one would build a "weak" ship packed with greek fire. A bit risky when "launched" from within your own fleet, isn't it?
(19:51:36) causative: the concept of the fireship taking damage over time isn't realistic either, the greek fire isn't supposed to burn your own ship
(19:52:27) elexis: causative: did you see the fire raiser in alpha 22 survival of the fittest?
(19:52:31) FeXoR: causative: I definitely agree with that!
(19:52:42) causative: possibly the iberian fire ship is modeled after something other than greek fire though?  greek fire is associated with the romans
(19:52:56) causative: like did they actually pile kindling on a barge and send it to crash into another ship
(19:55:37) causative: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fire_ship
(19:59:49) causative: so from that article it looks like the historical limitation of fire ships was that they were slow and difficult to steer, and if they had a crew, the crew would jump ship before impact
(20:00:19) causative: so the ideal way of putting them in 0ad I think would be to give them a ramming attack, but once they use the ramming attack they start losing health and cannot be steered thereafter
(20:00:23) causative: and make them slow
(20:00:50) causative: "ramming" = the point when the crew ignites the fireship and abandons it
(20:01:00) FeXoR: (And I doubt that it was "devastating", rather (within our game's scope) have  damage aura damaging all nearby ships (Friendly fire off?).
(20:01:41) phormio: The article is not applicable.
(20:01:56) phormio: It deals with classical sailing ships.
(20:02:44) FeXoR: causative: Do we have ramming? If so sonds like a decent approach.
(20:02:45) causative: phormio, it deals with both
(20:02:52) causative: we don't have ramming but it's supposed to be planned so
(20:03:36) phormio: People jumping from a ship is unrealistic.
(20:03:49) causative: they probably would have had a rowboat or something
(20:04:54) causative: how about this, which can be easily implemented:  the fireship is passive stance by default and does not lose health.  As soon as the fireship targets another unit for attack, it starts losing health rapidly, and also its speed drops 50% so it can be easily outmaneuvered
(20:05:14) causative: so "target another unit for attack" = "crew lights the fireship and rows away"
(20:08:37) causative: well then you'd just sail it up against the other ship without attacking and only attack when adjacent
(20:09:05) causative: so it could instead transfer into "burning mode" upon reaching a certain range of an enemy ship
(20:09:21) causative: like 50m

What we should actually do:

(21:28:55) fatherbushido: #1910
(21:28:56) WildfireBot: #1910 ([PATCH] Unit death damage) – http://trac.wildfiregames.com/ticket/1910
(21:28:59) fatherbushido: #1911
(21:28:59) WildfireBot: #1911 (Delayed damage) – http://trac.wildfiregames.com/ticket/1911
(21:29:03) fatherbushido: #1912
(21:29:03) WildfireBot: #1912 (Continuous damage after hit detection) – http://trac.wildfiregames.com/ticket/1912
(21:30:22) elexis: causative: do you think it would be wrong to commit the fireship patch?
(21:32:04) fatherbushido: elexis: any of your choice are ok
(21:33:17) fatherbushido: The good thing would be to finish those 3 patches
(21:33:56) fatherbushido: wich is not the scope of your patch
(21:52:23) causative: elexis, sure, give it a shot, then next naval svn game we can see if they are still op or what

-> The proposed patch in the scope of this diff (release preparation balancing)

This revision was automatically updated to reflect the committed changes.

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borg- edited edge metadata.Apr 30 2017, 5:29 AM

I thought of just messing with its cost, maybe 350 - 400 of wood. So you need to pay well to have a good drive, and in addition to avoiding your spam.