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[gameplay] tweak market technologies
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Authored by Nescio on Jan 14 2021, 3:43 AM.

Details

Summary

Currently there are five technologies available at the market:

  1. traders +25% movement speed
  2. traders +2 resistance
  3. traders +10% gain
  4. traders +15% gain
  5. trade structures +10% international bonus

This patch changes them:

  1. Deleted, because it was by far the most effective, about as good as the two gain technologies combined, but cheaper than either.
  2. Changed to +50% health (two resistance levels was equivalent to about +23%), cost changed to 300 food, excluded merchant ships (who already benefit from ship technologies), and made available in the town phase.
  3. Gain increase to +15%, slightly more expensive, different icon.
  4. Unchanged.
  5. Unchanged.

Altogether this makes means you have c. +33% more income when fully researched, instead of c. +58% previously, decreasing the advantage of the rich over the poor.

Test Plan

Check for mistakes and omissions, agree with the proposed values.

Diff Detail

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Event Timeline

borg- created this revision.Jan 14 2021, 3:43 AM
borg- requested review of this revision.Jan 14 2021, 3:43 AM
borg- updated this revision to Diff 15283.
borg- edited the summary of this revision. (Show Details)
Nescio requested changes to this revision.Jan 14 2021, 10:52 AM

The technology that has the largest effect on your income is the +25% movement speed increase, both with and without this patch.
Deprecating or merging the trade_convoys_speed.json and trade_convoys_armor.json is fine by me. The rest of the patch is not.

Two identical commercial gain technologies and an additional commercial gain technology for international routes, which in theory is basically the same thing.

You're mistaken, it's not the same thing. An increase in international bonus means that not only does it increase your gain when trading with markets and docks of other players, it also increase the gain of other players when trading with your markets and docks. It's a nice concept and allows for more interesting and cooperative gameplay. For comparison, the cart dock and market have a +0.1 international bonus as well.

What the patch proposes is to "clean up" the technologies by mixing the 3 commercial gain techonlogies in just one.

Gather technologies researched at the storehouse and farmstead have identical modifications, yet it makes sense to have one for each phase. I'd say the same applies to trade gain technologies.

This revision now requires changes to proceed.Jan 14 2021, 10:52 AM
borg- added a comment.EditedJan 14 2021, 2:51 PM

How about move the commercial gain tech to town and keep the international gain techonology superseding commercial gain for city phase?

What's wrong with having two trade gain technologies? The storehouse technologies are fine, aren't they?
If some market has to go, I'd say deprecate trade_convoys_speed. I don't really care about trade_convoys_armor either.
And if you want to simply have fewer similar technologies, have a look at the healer technologies at the temple.

borg- added a comment.Jan 14 2021, 4:33 PM

I can agree to keep two techs for commercial gain, but I see no reason to keep tech for international gain, it seems to me repeated. my intention is to clean and add new technologies soon.
the same will apply to temple technologies.

Stan added a subscriber: Stan.Jan 14 2021, 4:38 PM

I could also suggest to have I II III on tech icons if they feel identical?

I can agree to keep two techs for commercial gain, but I see no reason to keep tech for international gain, it seems to me repeated.

It's fundamentally different. If you're only trading with yourself, it won't help you at all (which is my it is so cheap), but if you have allies, both you and them benefit. It may be a bit more difficult to understand, but it encourages cooperation, therefore I'd really like it to stay.

I could also suggest to have I II III on tech icons if they feel identical?

Please do that for the gather technologies!

borg- added a comment.Jan 14 2021, 4:51 PM

I can agree to keep two techs for commercial gain, but I see no reason to keep tech for international gain, it seems to me repeated.

It's fundamentally different. If you're only trading with yourself, it won't help you at all (which is my it is so cheap), but if you have allies, both you and them benefit. It may be a bit more difficult to understand, but it encourages cooperation, therefore I'd really like it to stay.

Ah ok, now i understand, tnx

borg- updated this revision to Diff 15311.Jan 14 2021, 11:42 PM
borg- edited the summary of this revision. (Show Details)

Keep teatry e comercial gain 1/2 by @Nescio.

wraitii added a subscriber: wraitii.EditedJan 15 2021, 10:38 AM

What's the reason to bump the city-phase tech even more? 20% trade increase is substantial, and we had Diffs in the past to avoid the 'snowball' effect from going to City Phase.

Previously: 1.1^3=1.331, i.e. a 33% increase.
Patch: 1.15^3=1.521, i.e. a 52% increase.
I'm fine with increasing the trade gain technologies from +10% to +15%, but please remove the +25% movement speed bonus to compensate, and keep the trade_commercial_treaty.json unchanged.

borg- updated this revision to Diff 15363.Jan 16 2021, 1:58 AM

Changes by @Nescio

wraitii added inline comments.Jan 16 2021, 4:29 PM
binaries/data/mods/public/simulation/data/technologies/trade_gain_02.json
15

I still don't really get why this is 20% and not 15% like the first one, or even 10% if we want to make it less of a no-brainer.

Nescio added inline comments.Jan 16 2021, 5:55 PM
binaries/data/mods/public/simulation/data/technologies/trade_convoys_speed_health.json
15

Please remove this.

binaries/data/mods/public/simulation/data/technologies/trade_gain_02.json
15

Yes, I agree, don't increase it 20%.
It's fine for city phase technologies to be more expensive (e.g. 50%) without being more effective.

borg- added a comment.Jan 16 2021, 8:58 PM

@Nescio can commander and rebase with numbers proposed by wraitii ?

Nescio commandeered this revision.Jan 16 2021, 9:12 PM
Nescio edited reviewers, added: borg-; removed: Nescio.
Nescio updated this revision to Diff 15400.Jan 16 2021, 9:37 PM
Nescio retitled this revision from [gameplay] Improve market techs to [gameplay] tweak market technologies.
Nescio edited the summary of this revision. (Show Details)
Nescio edited the test plan for this revision. (Show Details)
  • redone from scratch
  • delete trader movement speed technology
  • exclude ships from the health technology and change its costs
  • make first technology
Owners added a subscriber: Restricted Owners Package.Jan 16 2021, 9:37 PM
Freagarach added a comment.EditedJan 17 2021, 7:56 AM

The speed also made raiding a bit harder, not sure if one wants that removed.

[Edit]: Perhaps moved to city phase?

borg- added a comment.Jan 17 2021, 4:39 PM

It would be interesting to have this for the 24.

I'm wondering if the health bonus shouldn't be bigger? Maybe 50% ?

+25% health was chosen because it's closest to +2 resistance. Trader health isn't particularly important, I don't object to +50%, if you think that's better.

borg- added a comment.EditedJan 18 2021, 2:33 AM

I have no problems with 50% either, as long as I add a food cost, like 300.

If you are not going to change the technology gain 2, then the amphore icon should be applied to technology 2, not 1.

wraitii requested changes to this revision.Jan 18 2021, 7:25 PM

Requesting +50% health then, so that it's a substantial resistance buff against raiding. 300 Food seems OK I guess?

+ Icon & this can be merged I think.

This revision now requires changes to proceed.Jan 18 2021, 7:25 PM
Nescio updated this revision to Diff 15484.Jan 18 2021, 8:32 PM
Nescio edited the summary of this revision. (Show Details)
  • trader health technology effect to 50%, per @wraitii
  • trader health technology cost to 300 food, per @borg-

If you are not going to change the technology gain 2, then the amphore icon should be applied to technology 2, not 1.

Not done: pottery is significantly less sophisticated than metal or glass, therefore it should be used for the first technology.

borg- accepted this revision.Jan 18 2021, 8:35 PM

Build is green

builderr-debug-macos.txt
ld: warning: text-based stub file /System/Library/Frameworks//CoreAudio.framework/CoreAudio.tbd and library file /System/Library/Frameworks//CoreAudio.framework/CoreAudio are out of sync. Falling back to library file for linking.
ld: warning: text-based stub file /System/Library/Frameworks//AudioToolbox.framework/AudioToolbox.tbd and library file /System/Library/Frameworks//AudioToolbox.framework/AudioToolbox are out of sync. Falling back to library file for linking.
ld: warning: text-based stub file /System/Library/Frameworks//ForceFeedback.framework/ForceFeedback.tbd and library file /System/Library/Frameworks//ForceFeedback.framework/ForceFeedback are out of sync. Falling back to library file for linking.
ld: warning: text-based stub file /System/Library/Frameworks//CoreVideo.framework/CoreVideo.tbd and library file /System/Library/Frameworks//CoreVideo.framework/CoreVideo are out of sync. Falling back to library file for linking.
ld: warning: text-based stu

See https://jenkins.wildfiregames.com/job/macos-differential/2950/display/redirect for more details.

wraitii accepted this revision.Jan 18 2021, 8:55 PM
This revision is now accepted and ready to land.Jan 18 2021, 8:55 PM
This revision was automatically updated to reflect the committed changes.