I agree

Successful build - Chance fights ever on the side of the prudent.

Link to build: https://jenkins.wildfiregames.com/job/vs2015-differential/6827/display/redirect

Build failure - The Moirai have given mortals hearts that can endure.

Link to build: https://jenkins.wildfiregames.com/job/macos-differential/5735/display/redirect

Proposed by @chrstgtr
same cost as CS cav, but all metal

I'd prefer 90 metal cost as that is 1.5x their infantry counterpart cost just like for citizens. Combine that change with adjusting their requiredxp for promotion to 2.5x or 3x relative to their citizen counterparts. It should help retain the mercenary identity of a quick to get and strong unit, but they'll be slower to reach rank 3 than their citizen counterparts.

Fine by me, so mostly a discussion with @chrstgtr I guess.

Other option could be to just disable rank 3 for them, but keep the current cost

In D4515#192746, @ValihrAnt wrote:

Proposed by @chrstgtr
same cost as CS cav, but all metal

I'd prefer 90 metal cost as that is 1.5x their infantry counterpart cost just like for citizens. Combine that change with adjusting their requiredxp for promotion to 2.5x or 3x relative to their citizen counterparts. It should help retain the mercenary identity of a quick to get and strong unit, but they'll be slower to reach rank 3 than their citizen counterparts.

I’m a little concerned that the eco to get them/cost is still too easy, but this will be step in the right direction and a huge improvement so I’d be willing to try. I’m less worried about promotion to rank 3.

Something else we could do is to make them expensive at something like 120 metal but (almost) immediately trainable. That would keep the quick to get element. But this’ll be totally uncharted territory for balancing and might create big spam problems.

Successful build - Chance fights ever on the side of the prudent.

Link to build: https://jenkins.wildfiregames.com/job/vs2015-differential/6846/display/redirect

Build failure - The Moirai have given mortals hearts that can endure.

Link to build: https://jenkins.wildfiregames.com/job/macos-differential/5754/display/redirect

The promotion experiences are a bit all over the place. Ranged cavalry require 188, melee cavalry 150, ranged infantry 125, melee infantry 100.

In D4515#193022, @ValihrAnt wrote:

The promotion experiences are a bit all over the place. Ranged cavalry require 188, melee cavalry 150, ranged infantry 125, melee infantry 100.

Well, looks like your already subscribed to the diff that introduced it :D
D2899
But yes would be nice if that would be unified and the health/ resistance/ attack values adjusted instead

It feels a bit strange to me (no need to act on this comment) that units specifically trained for war require _more_ experience to get better.

The idea was rooted in trying to balance them better and doesn't really have any realism thought behind it. Starting on a higher rank gives them greater health and means they're more likely to survive until rank 3, for melee they also get greater attack and armor which means they'll get the next promotion more quickly + their foes will be dealing less damage to them thus getting less experience for their own promotions.

In D4515#193200, @ValihrAnt wrote:

It feels a bit strange to me (no need to act on this comment) that units specifically trained for war require _more_ experience to get better.

The idea was rooted in trying to balance them better and doesn't really have any realism thought behind it. Starting on a higher rank gives them greater health and means they're more likely to survive until rank 3, for melee they also get greater attack and armor which means they'll get the next promotion more quickly + their foes will be dealing less damage to them thus getting less experience for their own promotions.

I honestly think mercs shouldn't promote at all. Leave that feature to citizen-soldiers.

In D4515#193364, @wowgetoffyourcellphone wrote:

In D4515#193200, @ValihrAnt wrote:

It feels a bit strange to me (no need to act on this comment) that units specifically trained for war require _more_ experience to get better.

The idea was rooted in trying to balance them better and doesn't really have any realism thought behind it. Starting on a higher rank gives them greater health and means they're more likely to survive until rank 3, for melee they also get greater attack and armor which means they'll get the next promotion more quickly + their foes will be dealing less damage to them thus getting less experience for their own promotions.

I honestly think mercs shouldn't promote at all. Leave that feature to citizen-soldiers.

agree. simpler to understand, more varied.

@Freagarach is there actually a way to disable ranking through the templates?

https://github.com/0ad/0ad/blob/f314b5b9d2be852a4d25f4b9ef40ab4acf4f2002/binaries/data/mods/public/maps/scenarios/unit_dancing_test_triggers.js#L376

looks hacky and I can't see another way without changing the promotion code itself
[which is an option, just wanted to ask first if this is worth it]

Alright, so is there a consensus that mercs shouldn't rank?

It would be a bit sad since the art for the units is then unused, but I can remove it.
Should they then maybe start at rank 3? maybe be even more expensive?

Also: I think this should probably be handled in a different diff than, since it touches all mercs and not just the cav.

In D4515#193680, @marder wrote:

Alright, so is there a consensus that mercs shouldn't rank?

It would be a bit sad since the art for the units is then unused, but I can remove it.
Should they then maybe start at rank 3? maybe be even more expensive?

Also: I think this should probably be handled in a different diff than, since it touches all mercs and not just the cav.

I don’t care if they promote or not. I lean towards letting them promote but I defer to others who care more.

I would not start at rank 3 unless they become considerably more difficult to spam—cost (and train time?). Rank 3 units are just so strong (and we saw what a mess rank 2 units had this alpha).

ok, so thinking about it some more:
I think this patch should make it in the game as is.
The promotion values are all over the place already, so unifying that needs to be done in a different patch in the future anyways.
And the same goes for disabling promotion for all mercs: That is a change that does not only concern the merc cav, but all mercs and can probably wait for a27 then.

I hope this increased cost will help balance, but the problem is less about 90 metals or experience and more about dependency on a single resource to train units. The way game plays happen, merc civic, especially Carthaginian, is banned from playing (@ValihrAnt or @chrstgtr might know if they play team games frequently). The alternative way to handle this issue would have been adding wood or food to train these units, like 40 wood and 80 metal or 40 food and 80 metal or some other combination. My similar concern was not given attention in a25 even though I indicated it several times. Well, let's see how it turns out in a26.