HomeWildfire Games

Amphitheater name fix, Gladiator commit and amphitheater integration, Maurya…
Concern RaisedrP23179

Description

Amphitheater name fix, Gladiator commit and amphitheater integration, Maurya double towers, ptolemaic sentry tower actor update

maurya towers https://wildfiregames.com/forum/index.php?/topic/27156-artillery-towers/page/2/&tab=comments#comment-388537

Details

Auditors
Angen
elexis
Committed
LordGoodNov 23 2019, 2:26 PM
Parents
rP23178: Rename a dds file to use the proper extension.
Branches
Unknown
Tags
Unknown
Build Status
Buildable 10095
Build 17104: Post-Commit BuildJenkins

Event Timeline

Freagarach added inline comments.
/ps/trunk/binaries/data/mods/public/simulation/templates/structures/maur_tower_double.xml
19

If one would omit the datatype="tokens" it replaces the previous tokens, thus not needing the -Infantry -Support.

elexis raised a concern with this commit.Nov 24 2019, 12:49 PM
elexis added a subscriber: elexis.

The tower seems very overpowered?

It's has the same firepower as a civic center or fortress, while the minimum distance is shorter (60m vs 80m).

The iberian tower once shot 10 and was nerfed to 8 arrows because it was too strong.
That was a nerf by 20%, this is 250% the firepower the iberian tower currently has.

It's unique that only archers can garrison here when everywhere else all infantry can garrison. But I guess it makes sense as there are visible garrison spots.

On the other hand perhaps the tower is not so devastating at all, since the archers can easily be killed by other archers, contrary to the other towers where the archers are hidden?

Though the archers have the elevation advantage, 72 meter + 16 meters vs other archers having 72 meters, so opponent archers can't get in range to attack those visibly garrisoned archers.

Why are there 20 garrison slots and 16 visible garrison slots?

It also means that the player cannot chose which units are visibly garrisoned, which units are hidden garrisoned, which of the unit types will be ungarrisoned when performing the ungarrison action, which was considered a defect when the visible garrison code was proposed.

The tower is affected by tech upgrades, such as the range upgrade and the +40% arrow damage upgrade, but those upgrades do not affect the units visibly garrisoned while the player likely assumes this to be the case when reading the tech description and clicking on it.

Visually 16 archers seem to be overkill equally to the balancing overkill?


I'm not against experiments, but experiments should be done in branches or mods. We should land things that are finished, otherwise we'll never finish.
So I suggest before landing balance changing things to ask competitive players who are more able to judge which changes will have which impact. (Only being competitive (regardlessw whether the opponent is a bot or human) will make one drive to exploit any benefits of own entities and exploit any weaknesses of opposing units, thus make one drive to explore and weigh the balancing, as oposed to someone who plays for leasure and doesn't care about the balancing or meeting the victory condition of the match)
Though I guess asking competitive players and modders like ValihrAnt, borg-, FeldFeld, Boudicca, faction02, HMS-Surprise,... also doesn't work because of words being sent not being the same as communication etc.

Another option is to do it as was done in other commits: add the buildings/units to scenario maps but make them trainable / buildable in a separate step that compares the worth of the entity to the other entities.

And why is DefaultArrowCount 2 (another bonus over the other towers) , and why is MaxArrowCount 7 (The other towers don't have max arrows)?
The maxArrow count doesnt work for the visibily garrisoned archers, and there can't be so many archers garrisoned invisibly so that the arrow count comes into effect? 2 default + 4 garrisoned. Perhaps it's for the +40% arrows / garrisoned tech which would come out as 7.6 arrows to limit it to 7?
But then why is it limited to 7 here but when actually garrisoned it can shoot up to 20 arrows?

It's possible to upgrade to that tower, but not to build that tower. So it's not displayed in the structure tree (whereas the other towers are listed there, they can be built independently and upgraded).

By raising a concern I'm putting it onto the list of balancing changes that need balancing tests to be performed when the other balancing tests are performed before the release.

/ps/trunk/binaries/data/mods/public/simulation/templates/units/rome_champion_infantry_sword_gladiator.xml
19

All other resource operations don't use trailing zeroes

44

Half vision range seems random?

This commit now has outstanding concerns.Nov 24 2019, 12:49 PM
Stan added a subscriber: Stan.Nov 24 2019, 1:57 PM

The tower seems very overpowered?

It's has the same firepower as a civic center or fortress, while the minimum distance is shorter (60m vs 80m).

The iberian tower once shot 10 and was nerfed to 8 arrows because it was too strong.
That was a nerf by 20%, this is 250% the firepower the iberian tower currently has.

It's unique that only archers can garrison here when everywhere else all infantry can garrison. But I guess it makes sense as there are visible garrison spots.

On the other hand perhaps the tower is not so devastating at all, since the archers can easily be killed by other archers, contrary to the other towers where the archers are hidden?

Though the archers have the elevation advantage, 72 meter + 16 meters vs other archers having 72 meters, so opponent archers can't get in range to attack those visibly garrisoned archers.

Why are there 20 garrison slots and 16 visible garrison slots?

It also means that the player cannot chose which units are visibly garrisoned, which units are hidden garrisoned, which of the unit types will be ungarrisoned when performing the ungarrison action, which was considered a defect when the visible garrison code was proposed.

To solve part of this https://code.wildfiregames.com/D2308 (So you can have visible archers and invisible melee)
I believe @Freagarach has a gui patch

I believe @Freagarach has a gui patch

D2405, but I don't see that finished anytime soon, because of the current GUI.

If I didn't add the projectile limit to the Maurya tower it would have shot 21 building AI arrows on top of the 16 visible garrisoned archer arrows, and it IS an upgraded tower so giving it a small boost ungarrisoned is warranted. These were tested fairly throughly in the editor and don't feel unfair. 16 archers rooted to a single position do not quantify any disproportionate tactical or strategic bonus, and are quickly shot down by either counter archers or siege weapons, things that cannot be done to the Iberian tower's defenders. The absolute worst thing you could do though is try and rush it with non-siege melee units. Once all the archers are shot off the ramparts the tower is only a slightly beefier version of the standard defense tower, with one less soldier inside making it easier to capture.

My balancing questions only involve the build orders and cost.

Gladiator vision nerf is to prevent them from being abused for their speed for raiding purposes, also on account of their large restrictive helmets

Angen raised a concern with this commit.May 20 2020, 1:40 PM
Angen added a subscriber: Angen.
Angen added inline comments.
/ps/trunk/binaries/data/mods/public/simulation/templates/structures/maur_defense_tower.xml
13

Final . is missing reported by GunChleoc on transifex

Angen accepted this commit.May 20 2020, 6:52 PM

Missing dot fixed in rP23679.