Build failure - The Moirai have given mortals hearts that can endure.

Link to build: https://jenkins.wildfiregames.com/job/macos-differential/7251/display/redirect

Successful build - Chance fights ever on the side of the prudent.

Link to build: https://jenkins.wildfiregames.com/job/vs2015-differential/8340/display/redirect

I think so, we need to look at that, but I don't think armor would not attractive enough. I think the problem is still the cost, despite being only 200 food at the beginning of the game, especially when you're being rushed, it's a lot. I would do something like 100 food +50% health and a second tech costing something like 150 food (or maybe another resource) +50% health.

In D5118#217588, @borg- wrote:

I think so, we need to look at that, but I don't think armor would not attractive enough. I think the problem is still the cost, despite being only 200 food at the beginning of the game, especially when you're being rushed, it's a lot. I would do something like 100 food +50% health and a second tech costing something like 150 food (or maybe another resource) +50% health.

I am going to do a second pass on this patch. I think making the cost 50 food,, 50 metal, and also adding the armor could be good, but what do you think about researching it from the cc? The idea is to force a decision between stronger economy or less risky economy.

I don't think so, I prefer to keep it at house. 100 food for the first one and then 50f/50m for the second one sounds good to me.

I also think that the second one, instead of giving armor, could give a little more health and movement speed, or just movement speed. I think movement speed can be very interesting.

Build failure - The Moirai have given mortals hearts that can endure.

Link to build: https://jenkins.wildfiregames.com/job/macos-differential/7255/display/redirect

Successful build - Chance fights ever on the side of the prudent.

Link to build: https://jenkins.wildfiregames.com/job/vs2015-differential/8344/display/redirect

@wowgetoffyourcellphone any ideas for a good generic name and description? I put the sports part as a filler.

Maybe some technology about some footwear like sandals or something women wore at the time?

@chrstgtr put an important point in the forum. Women in this case would be faster than melee infantry units. I'm worried about that, maybe we should take a more cautious approach here, maybe only two health technologies, or just lower the cost of current technology like 100 food 25 metal or wood.

In D5118#217756, @borg- wrote:

@chrstgtr put an important point in the forum. Women in this case would be faster than melee infantry units. I'm worried about that, maybe we should take a more cautious approach here, maybe only two health technologies, or just lower the cost of current technology like 100 food 25 metal or wood.

Hmm perhaps less is more in this case. Maybe I will just change the food cost of loom.

Build failure - The Moirai have given mortals hearts that can endure.

Link to build: https://jenkins.wildfiregames.com/job/macos-differential/7269/display/redirect

Successful build - Chance fights ever on the side of the prudent.

Link to build: https://jenkins.wildfiregames.com/job/vs2015-differential/8358/display/redirect

Don't you think it's interesting to add 25 wood?

In D5118#217777, @borg- wrote:

Don't you think it's interesting to add 25 wood?

I mean, possibly, but the point is to force a decision: does the player spend 100 food to get the stronger women, or 100 food to get two additional women. Wood doesn't really add to this decision, especially not 25 wood. This is why it is cool to let it be researched from the CC, since it forces the decision more.
I think the best approach would be 100 food, 20 seconds research time, and from the CC. But this patch is more of a compromise.

I think the best approach would be 100 food, 20 seconds research time, and from the CC. But this patch is more of a compromise.

I think you are right here. I think 200 is too expensive and 100 is too cheap, but if it is searched in cc (20) then there is a penalty.

@chrstgtr any opnion?

In D5118#218125, @borg- wrote:

I think the best approach would be 100 food, 20 seconds research time, and from the CC. But this patch is more of a compromise.

I think you are right here. I think 200 is too expensive and 100 is too cheap, but if it is searched in cc (20) then there is a penalty.

@chrstgtr any opnion?

I think Borg’s suggestion makes more sense. (I would go farther and make it cost 50 food and put it in the house)

I think everyone agrees that the current problem is cost. So if the current problem is cost why are making it cheaper with res but adding an additional cost by putting it in the CC?

To me, putting it in the CC makes it less appealing than the status quo. Players only research this if they are under bad rush and desperate. Putting it in the CC will cause that player to stop their unit production. No one is going to research this tech so they can put 20 slightly stronger women on wood far away from any protection.

So @chrstgtr you think it should be lowered more? I worry that it could become a no-brainer. That being said, it should be much more common in 0ad, more like how early or late do you get loom rather than should I get loom at all.
I think if it is 50 food and 20 seconds it should definitely come from the cc, but I am happy with the current patch's values as a compromise. deciding between 2 women's worth of food and loom seems like a good enough of a tradeoff, and the upgrade should be feasibly researched early on.

In D5118#218141, @real_tabasco_sauce wrote:

So @chrstgtr you think it should be lowered more? I worry that it could become a no-brainer.

That's what I think the ideal number is but I know no one else seems to agree. I am just saying to tell you where I am coming from. The suggestion from @borg- is closest to what I think is ideal so I would side with his proposed numbers over the CC proposal.

My concern with putting is in the CC is that you are adding an indirect cost to it. I think that opportunity cost is greater than the value of a reduction in resource costs.

Maybe safe numbers like food 150 and decrease research time to 20 or 30?

In D5118#218311, @borg- wrote:

Maybe safe numbers like food 150 and decrease research time to 20 or 30?

I would be fine with any reduction.

ok ill go with 100 food and 20 seconds. If the upgrade becomes ubiquitous (which I doubt), then we can revisit this later.

It's a number I can accept but I always prefer safe numbers. 150 with 20 sec would be an improvement anyway. I'm afraid that his numbers make him a difficult and discouraging for rushes.

In D5118#218315, @borg- wrote:

It's a number I can accept but I always prefer safe numbers. 150 with 20 sec would be an improvement anyway. I'm afraid that his numbers make him a difficult and discouraging for rushes.

ok then we can start at 150.

Build failure - The Moirai have given mortals hearts that can endure.

Link to build: https://jenkins.wildfiregames.com/job/macos-differential/7308/display/redirect

Successful build - Chance fights ever on the side of the prudent.

Debug:
    18>e:\jenkins\workspace\vs2015-differential\libraries\source\glad\src\vulkan.cpp(696): warning C4551: function call missing argument list [E:\Jenkins\workspace\vs2015-differential\build\workspaces\vs2017\gladwrapper.vcxproj]
Release:
    18>e:\jenkins\workspace\vs2015-differential\libraries\source\glad\src\vulkan.cpp(696): warning C4551: function call missing argument list [E:\Jenkins\workspace\vs2015-differential\build\workspaces\vs2017\gladwrapper.vcxproj]

Link to build: https://jenkins.wildfiregames.com/job/vs2015-differential/8397/display/redirect