In D2846#123259, @Angen wrote:

The "Perioikoi Hoplites " were not Spartan citizens

Then I guess we should find new unit for spartans

In D2862#122899, @Nescio wrote:

Given that the Mauryas are the only ones who can build an elephant stable, we could address that by changing the <BatchTimeModifier> from 0.7 to 0.8.

If it is historically wrong, then I don't think it should be maintained.

I am willing to accept this patch, in general it is very good. However starting with a healer with advance rank would be very powerful if used wel, rank 1 must be better.

Putting "Cost/BuildTime" on the "Rank Techs" seems to make more sense, besides being easier for future changes. Virtually no changes to gameplay.

New values look good to me now.

Correct identation pointed by @Nescio

Change cost to 500 food 200 metal suggested by @Nescio.
decrease penalty 10% to 5%.

Correct loot (2) pointed by @Nescio

In D2816#123071, @Nescio wrote:

Infantry with 30w 20m can be a problem early game for rome/iber.

So swordsmen costing 30 wood + 20 metal is problematic, but slingers costing 20 wood + 30 stone is not?

What about remove 10% training time and 500f0200m?

@Nescio seems correct?

In D2846#123051, @Nescio wrote:

300 food + 300 metal looks a bit unimpressive. What happened to the 500 food + 200 metal suggested earlier?

Citizen cavalry sword 30 wood 20 metal --> 40 wood 10 metal, same to infantry sword.
Champion cavalry axemen/sword same cost/loot.
Champion Infantry axemen/sword same cost/loot.

Correct idendation.

Champion cavalry with 24 may be a risk (spam late game). What about keep 20 for infantry and 27 for cavalry?

In D2816#122967, @Nescio wrote:

You say about axemen?

No, I mean template_unit_infantry_melee_swordsman.xml ought to cost 30 wood and 20 metal, same as its cavalry counterpart.
And champion axemen −10 wood, +10 metal, champion swordsmen −20 wood, +20 metal, both for infantry and cavalry. At least that would be consistent across the board.

basic cavalry axeman : 40 wood, 10 metal
basic infantry axeman : 40 wood, 10 metal
basic cavalry spearman : 50 wood, 0 metal
basic infantry spearman : 50 wood, 0 metal
basic cavalry swordsman : 30 wood, 20 metal
basic infantry swordsman : 40 wood, 10 metal

The last one looks inconsistent, though. Maybe something for a future patch? Or fix it here.

In D2816#122943, @Nescio wrote:

Unfortunately I still don't understand why cavalry axemen and swordsmen have 20 but infantry only 10. Could you explain your reasoning in more detail?

Up patch

Up patch.

In D2816#122918, @Nescio wrote:

Also, currently champion elephants have the same training time as cavalry (30), but they're far more powerful. Should that be changed too (e.g. to 36)?

@Nescio with new women value, maybe you need check women trained on houses.

Seems good, would be like @Feldfeld opnion.

In D2866#122906, @Nescio wrote:

So which option do you prefer?

                A    B    C
female   :  8 →  9 |  8 |  9
infantry : 10 → 12 | 12 | 12
cavalry  : 15 → 18 | 16 | 15
healer   :  8 → 15 | 20 | 18

In D2816#122902, @Nescio wrote:

• This patch changes cavalry costs to 150 food + 80 wood + 100 metal and infantry costs to 70 food + 70 wood + 80 metal, i.e. cavalry have a difference between wood and metal of 20, infantry of 10, which seems a bit inconsistent. Perhaps tweak the latter to 80 + 60 + 80?
• The cavalry axeman has +10 wood and −10 metal, but the infantry axeman +20, −20. Is that intentional?
• The cavalry swordsman has −20 wood and +20 metal, but the infantry swordsman −10, +10. Is that intentional?

@Nescio look mace silver shields, is a elite rank.

The values are good for "normal" games, my only doubt are dm games.

Up patch.

In D2856#122849, @Nescio wrote:

By the way, which do you consider preferable, +10% training time or +10% food cost?

Hmm, I'm not sure this is justifiable. By the time Athens was using Thureophoroi they had been militarily neutered for years. Thorakites for Sparta has no historical justification either, unfortunately. Sparta has Skiritai swordsdudes, so that's good enough for ram countering. Athens has the Marine sword dude.

Seems much better for future patchs.

I'm not sure if it solves the spam problem, it seems to me that it just slow. I think that only the infantry should go for 12 seconds, keeping the rest as it is. this would make the cavalry more effective and less penalized at the start of the game if a rush is unsuccessful. Increase a distance between women and infantry makes the player choose between more security and less economy, training soldiers, or vulnerability and more economy choosing women.

After some tests the proposed values seems better than current values.

@Nescio tnx update!!!

@Nescio i can remove elephant loot of D2816?

In D2856#122657, @Nescio wrote:

I think 400/300 can be a good number.

Or 500 food + 250 metal?

I like keep thureophoros for athens and thorakites for sparta.

In D2856#122657, @Nescio wrote:

I think 400/300 can be a good number.

Or 500 food + 250 metal?

With D2862, 15 secs can be better @Feldfeld.

In D2816#122736, @borg- wrote:

In D2816#122735, @Nescio wrote:

Also, I'd still favour increasing citizen training time a bit:

infantry : 10 → 12
cavalry  : 15 → 18

Yep, i agree for infantry. Its make spam harder, but cav i prefere jeep 15 sec. Cavalry cant boom eco.

In D2816#122729, @Nescio wrote:

I will keep xp190 for cavalry as it is a percentage of citizen cavalry. Yes, really elephant needs a bigger xp, thanks for find this.

Yes, citizen cavalry has about a third more experience than citizen infantry (130 vs 100), which is why I suggested 200 instead of 190 for champion cavalry (i.e. a third more than the 150 of infantry).

@Nescio done.

@Nescio check pls.

Kṣhatriya Warrior Caste cannot currently be considered a bonus. I like this idea, it has a historical base. I am not completely sure about the value of -30%, but it seems to me an interesting value. I will test.

Up new patch.

Well, it seems more accurate historically, as discussed earlier on the forum. I have nothing against patching.

For the silver shields, how about 1000 metal + 40 seconds → 600 metal + 60 seconds?

In D2846#122660, @Nescio wrote:

Ok, historically make more sense attack to silver shield than spartans?

Yes!

What about new value 300/300?

That seems a bit cheap.

In D2846#122655, @Nescio wrote:

it also helps to differentiate the two techs.

Why not keep the Agoge as is (+25% health, +10% training time), but change silver shields (template) to +10% health and +10% attack damage?

In D2856#122653, @Nescio wrote:

Why remove silver shields?

Better include them in D2846, given the discussion there.

600f/300m is very expensive If its affect only one unit.

Given that this effectively means +80 health, I think it's worth it.
Food shouldn't be too much of a problem in late game, and the silver shields technology also affects only one unit, but costs 1000 metal.

Ok, tnx for information.

Why remove silver Shields?

In D2861#122604, @Stan wrote:

Please accept the patch then :)

I think 1.5 repeat time are better, but im ok with this values.

In D2846#122598, @Feldfeld wrote:

In a21 where champions were more used, spartan and macedonian champions were quite popular with the previous values of the technologies, which encourages me to think the techs shouldn't be buffed too much.

In D2861#122593, @Feldfeld wrote:

I also wondered why they were the same when I started the game. The values look good to me. Still ping @borg-

@Nescio @Feldfeld check new values. I will make other patch for silver shield values.

Up new patch.

In D2846#122474, @Nescio wrote:

Actually I prefer the previous version.
Also, the indentation of the city phase line is wrong, crush damage is missing (see other technologies), and the modifications are not in alphabetical order.

What about:

+25% health and no armour upgrade for mace champ, cost 700 metal
+25% health and 10% attack + 10% training time, cost 350f 350m for spartan champ?

In D2856#122475, @Nescio wrote:

Another idea: make special_war_horses.json the cavalry equivalent of spartans_agoge.json, giving it similar stats, but affects only "Champion Cavalry Spearman".
Historically Nisean horses were highly prized and sought after, but reserved for the heaviest shock cavalry only (i.e. spearman champions in 0 A.D.).
The upgrade_mace_silvershields.json time increase looks fine. Maybe split this patch in two?

In D2851#122276, @Nescio wrote:

The idea is nice, the implementation is wrong.
template_unit_cavalry_melee.xml and template_unit_infantry_melee.xml set a first preference to Human, which is inherited by all their children, i.e. this patch removes the second preference (Siege), but keeps the first.
What I would recommend is:

• remove <PreferredClasses> from *_melee.xml;
• set <PreferredClasses> to Human or Organic in *_pikeman.xml and *_spearman.xml;
• set <PreferredClasses> to Unit or Unit+!Ship in *_axeman.xml and *_swordsman.xml;
• remove <PreferredClasses> from *_maceman.xml.

See also D1354.
[EDIT] While at it:

• remove <PreferredClasses> from *_ranged.xml;
• set <PreferredClasses> to Human in *_archer.xml, *_javelinist.xml, *_slinger.xml.

@wraitii opnion?

@wraitii opnion?

As I said, maybe it’s better to just change the hero status.

In D2853#122379, @Feldfeld wrote:

I don't understand (in particular the values @borg- suggested), this nullifies half of the work done in D2575(@ValihrAnt). Having hack attack is justified by elephants being good against humans, the walk speed could be justified by armor values (but I can understand why we would want it to be the same as other elephants, that works too).

In D2847#122273, @Nescio wrote:

How about b 2.5, a 3.2, e 4, c 5, h 10 then? I like the b:c:h 1:2:4 ratio (same as melee damage).

Yes, elephant hero need a better status than champion, i like, but only 75 crush damage for champion elephant makes no efetive vs units and building.

I like the changes, and it's something that should have been done some time ago.
The main reason for not training is the long training time, it affects the economy a lot.
My suggestion for values:
Cost 120f and armour 2/2.

b 2
a 2.4 i.e. +20% = ×6/5
e 3 i.e. +25% = ×5/4
c 4 i.e. +33% = ×4/3
h 8

I will make tests

In D2494#120610, @Nescio wrote:

What exactly?

@Nescio what you think about my Idea?