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[gameplay] Cavalry training time and movement speed for ranged cavalry.

Authored by borg- on Mar 11 2021, 7:40 PM.



Discussed in the forum and required by many players, mainly by @ValihrAnt and me.

Increased training time and decreased movement speed made cavalry ineffective in the first few minutes of the game. At the moment they are only effective in harassing some women and nothing else. The addition of the stable also made cavalry spam a little difficult, because if you built a stable and it was not effective enough, you are likely to lose the game to an opponent who builds a barrack
The idea of the patch is to make the cavalry a little more effective at the beginning of the game, especially ranged cavalry, which can be easily slaughtered by spear cavalry.

I chose a defensive number (15) for training time, but I think 14 can be better.
Ranged cavalry movement speed from 15 to 16.

Test Plan

Test cavalry effectiveness in the first minutes of the game.

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Event Timeline

borg- created this revision.Mar 11 2021, 7:40 PM
borg- requested review of this revision.Mar 11 2021, 7:40 PM
Nescio requested changes to this revision.Mar 11 2021, 8:36 PM

The training time increase sounds reasonable and is proportional. As for the speed change, just round it to 0.9. Furthermore, you forgot the heroes:

34–36 ↗(On Diff #16400)

Purge here, insert into *_archer.xml and *_javelineer.xml.

This revision now requires changes to proceed.Mar 11 2021, 8:36 PM
borg- updated this revision to Diff 16403.EditedMar 11 2021, 10:31 PM
borg- edited the summary of this revision. (Show Details)

I kept 0.89, well it doesn't make much difference.

Could you please link to the forum thread where this is discussed?

Another thing I suspect made ranged cavalry less effective is the changed turn rates. Those probably have to be tweaked again, though with extensive testing, therefore something for another patch (I won't). Nevertheless, different turn rates might necessitate different movement speeds; I don't know.

I kept 0.89, well it doesn't make much difference.

The reason I prefer 0.9 is the same why I objected to 0.835 in D3483: it's unnecessarily precise. If it hardly makes a difference, choose the easier number.

Also, please generate patches from the root (i.e. where the binaries/, source/, and .svn/ folders are located), having context is generally helpful.

I definitely agree that cavalry need higher movement speed and train time adjustment, but these two things are also very dependant on other stuff. For cavalry train time it depends on general unit train time and I'd prefer it to be moved back to around the old values currently. For movement speed it also does slightly come down to rotation times. So this patch is probably best left for later?

My main concern is that this might make melee cavalry a worse counter to ranged cavalry again.

I don't really mind going back, however I would note that this is heavily dependent on:

  • stable/barracks/CCs training the units they train now
  • spearmen being such an effective counter in the early game

I'll also point out that I reduced the turn length in MP from 500ms to 200ms for A25, which makes microing around spearmen easier for cavalry, particularly jav cav.

I'm also-also wondering if cavalry archer should be included here.

The time reduction looks good and can be committed as is. If and when a future patch tweaks training times of other units, then cavalry values can be further adjusted then and there, but right now there is no point in waiting for that.
As for the movement speed change, I have no objections to it and it could be given a try. However, I think adjusting unit turn rates is more important and might have a greater effect. Perhaps we should wait for such a patch.
And maybe we ought to differentiate between horse archers (×0.8) and javelineers (×0.9).

Nescio accepted this revision.Mar 16 2021, 6:15 PM

Actually I'm fine with these changes being given a try. Further adjustments can be made later, if and when necessary.

This revision is now accepted and ready to land.Mar 16 2021, 6:15 PM

I think all cavalry in general need a slight speed increase. While at it, though, I believe archer cavalry should be a little bit slower than javelin cavalry. Nothing major but like a 0.5 speed difference.

borg- added a comment.Mar 22 2021, 7:54 PM

I think all cavalry in general need a slight speed increase. While at it, though, I believe archer cavalry should be a little bit slower than javelin cavalry. Nothing major but like a 0.5 speed difference.

In my view, I don't think it's necessary for archer cavalry to move slower. Basically the problem is with the Ptolemies camel rush. Camel in my opinion must be slower than horses, so we can make a change between camel and horse here, without changing the other archer cavalry.

wraitii accepted this revision.Mar 26 2021, 6:00 PM

Fine for me then.

Owners added a subscriber: Restricted Owners Package.Mar 26 2021, 6:03 PM