Are these the same rotation times and speeds in the mod you created? If so, I like the balance.

https://wildfiregames.com/forum/topic/39424-train-time-and-rotation-time-mod/

For what it's worth, I dislike these rotation values, since they feel too fast.

You're not changing elephants, is that just on purpose?

I'm not sure how to go about this problem. There is obviously a fundamental disagreement between the 'competitive' scene and more casual players, and I'm not sure it can be fixed...

A workaround could be to apply a tech that changes the modifiers on game start? with a gamesetup option? A bit like the cartography mod https://0ad.mod.io/cartographymode

Are these the same rotation times and speeds in the mod you created? If so, I like the balance.

Yes.

You're not changing elephants, is that just on purpose?

Yes, I'm not changing champion, elephant, hero, and siege rotation.

For what it's worth, I dislike these rotation values, since they feel too fast.
I'm not sure how to go about this problem. There is obviously a fundamental disagreement between the 'competitive' scene and more casual players, and I'm not sure it can be fixed...

Yeah, it is difficult to find values that would have consensus.

In D3971#171166, @Freagarach wrote:

For what it's worth, I dislike these rotation values, since they feel too fast.

What's your objection exactly? Aesthetics?

I, along with @ValihrAnt and several other players, have a problem with the current turn rates because they are too slow to allow for several strategies, such as rushing, that make the game more dynamic and fun. In all honesty, playing right now is extremely frustrating because units do not react nearly as quickly as I click or think. This delay is especially problematic when there is lag lag, which is basically every multiplayer game. In short, current turn rates harm gameplay.

The current turn rates also just don't look right from a realism perspective. People, horses, ships, elephants, siege, etc. do not simply stop in place and do a 180 degree turn.

I understood that turn rates were originally increased to prevent dancing. This patch will still effectively prevent dancing because hero and champ units (i.e., the units that players dance with) will still have theri a24 turn rates.

In D3971#171340, @chrstgtr wrote:

What's your objection exactly? Aesthetics?

Aesthetics,
immersion,

• It doesn't look like the units are machines, turning in an instant.
• One (at least me) has the feeling movement is more natural.

gameplay.

• With certain turn times you can slow an enemy down significantly in a forest, thus making the choice of your battleground more important.
• It means that retreating can be a costly exercise (at least for the first few moments), meaning that one can't go in blindly to retreat when there is the urge.
• You can't overly do hit-and-run (I always hated that in AoE-II) but have some time to catch up with turning enemies.

Thus adding more depth to the game.

In D3971#171340, @chrstgtr wrote:

People, horses, ships, elephants, siege, etc. do not simply stop in place and do a 180 degree turn.

Indeed not, because they would make a circle (depends on the speed and inertia), but since that is not implemented this is a nice middle-ground. (Also, most people _do_ stop for a one-eighty.)

I guess I get your aesthetics concerns. My reply is simply that it is a game and not a simulation, and there are countless other ways that things depart from what is "natural." But I acknowledge this likely won't convince you

In D3971#171343, @Freagarach wrote:

gameplay.

• With certain turn times you can slow an enemy down significantly in a forest, thus making the choice of your battleground more important.
• It means that retreating can be a costly exercise (at least for the first few moments), meaning that one can't go in blindly to retreat when there is the urge.
• You can't overly do hit-and-run (I always hated that in AoE-II) but have some time to catch up with turning enemies.

Thus adding more depth to the game.

On the gameplay piece, I think your concerns are actually misplaced. You are right about everything you say except the conclusion, which isn't evidenced at all from actual games. There are actually less strategies available now because of the slower rotation times. Players no longer rush because, among other things, turn times make it impossible to retreat without losing a significant number of rushing units. This is also true of bigger late game battles. so players just spam or stand their ground instead of maneuvering their units. This takes away depth because the optimal (and almost universal) strategy is to boom with women without fear of rush. I've played several games with the proposed patch's rotation times and players were able to effectively use rushes and maneuver units in a way that almost never happens right now in a24.

Useful details, all this. I don't think it really alleviates Freagarach's concerns with this feature change, which seem rather fundamental :p, but hopefully you can see chrstgtr's point.

IMO, we need to accept this patch, for now. This seems like a simple way to get some of the 'fun' back for the MP scene, and well it's still slightly better than A23 from freagarach's POV, which I think make it a win-win.

I fear we'll need more & other solutions (possibly directional damage, as was discussed on the forum?) to actually realise "more depth" by slowing movement down.

In D3971#171357, @wraitii wrote:

I fear we'll need more & other solutions (possibly directional damage, as was discussed on the forum?) to actually realise "more depth" by slowing movement down.

I had this point in mind as well.
I can't accept, but won't raise a concern against this patch more than I already did, and am grateful that there are people who stand up to try and improve the game. (Even though I disagree with some paths taken.)

I think there are two sides to this story. Sure, I agree with chrstgtr that people will prefer booming over playing aggressively because they will lose a good amount of units while retrieving. You can play this two ways; one is to hit eco, where you are sure to win a fight, or the second, hit and run. Hitting eco still works, but hit and run won't work now; you can only take a winning fight and retrieve and not win a fight by a hit & run where u surely were losing. But, do you realize that people will do the same hit and run with cavalry as they do with archers now? If we reduce the turnaround time, the skirmish and pike units will become totally useless even against skirmish cav. Sure, the change will favor a few top and aggressive players, but it might unbalance the game for moderate and beginner levels. You can't just fight units upfront like pikes and spear and do a 180 degrees flip and runway without taking any damage. Besides, you can still run around and hit people eco, it's just that you can't hit and run and win a surely losing fight.