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[gameplay] remove the build time malus from greek structures
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Authored by Feldfeld on Sat, Jun 27, 6:01 PM.

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Reviewers
wraitii
Summary

The "Hellenic Architecture" civ bonus for greeks currently gives +10% health and +10% capture points but +10% build time for all greek structures.
The problem is that the build time malus gives an economic disadvantage that can snowball through the game.
The proposition is to remove it so that "Hellenic Architecture" feels like a real bonus.

Test Plan

Agree this is an improvement.

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Event Timeline

Feldfeld created this revision.Sat, Jun 27, 6:01 PM
Nescio added a subscriber: Nescio.Sat, Jun 27, 6:14 PM

The reason the build time increases is to keep the health/second repair speed unchanged. I disagree with removing it. Other technologies and civ bonuses do this as well. See e.g. cart_walls.json, celt_structures.json, maur_walls.json and buildtime_walls_rubble.json, health_walls_geometric_masonry.json, persian_architecture.json.

If the economy is the problem, how about replacing Structure with Civic?

The reason the build time increases is to keep the health/second repair speed unchanged. I disagree with removing it. Other technologies and civ bonuses do this as well. See e.g. cart_walls.json, celt_structures.json, maur_walls.json and buildtime_walls_rubble.json, health_walls_geometric_masonry.json, persian_architecture.json.

All the other technologies/bonuses have a justification gameplay (balance) wise for their changes. As an example, celt_structures.json is a strong economic bonus and sacrificing building health is still quite good for it. For the technologies, since the build time change isn't applied before the technology is researched that makes it a good bonus. (And even for buildings that are built after the technologies are researched, there is no economic snowball so this remain quite good).
I would like to say that keeping the build time / building health ratio is not important here but that's just me I guess

If the economy is the problem, how about replacing Structure with Civic?

Houses are civic and they take a good % of build time spent in early game so this will remain a problem, a bit less important

borg- added a subscriber: borg-.Sat, Jun 27, 10:57 PM

Sure, it really affects the early game.
I agree with the patch. it helps in balancing and it also seems to make more sense as a "bonus".
@Nescio has a good point about repair rate.

Currently build time and health are correlated; if a technology increases a structure's health, its build time goes up, and if it decreases its build time, so does its health. I like consistency, and don't see why an exception should be made here.
Besides, it's not exceptional for a “civ bonus” to be actually a malus; cf. spart_population.json.
Other things that could be done is postpone this civ bonus (e.g. insert a phase_town requirement) or replace it entirely and create new civbonus(es).

wraitii accepted this revision.Sun, Jun 28, 11:43 AM
wraitii added a subscriber: wraitii.

I disagree with the consistency argument -> this is a civilisation bonus, not a technology. It effectively is a way to modify all templates for hellenistic civilisations without having to actually modify the templates (since that's annoying to maintain).

I like the change.

This revision is now accepted and ready to land.Sun, Jun 28, 11:43 AM
Feldfeld added a comment.EditedSun, Jun 28, 8:56 PM

Also the consistency is not strictly held through all the game. There is special_colonisation.json for Carthage, and special_hellenistic_metropolis.json that doubles the HP of civil centres (but is quite specific)