- User Since
- Jul 4 2017, 9:26 PM (324 w, 1 d)
Jun 4 2023
That's to reflect the fact that sometimes elephants could run amok and kill friend or foes alike, I believe.
For me it would also make sense if catapults also had splash damage + friendly fire, but oh well. Not so easy to balance.
Jun 2 2023
I kinda preferred when it had higher hack armor than pierce armor as it was realistic
Other than that, if this can go into the game before the release, then I rather have it in even if it is still imbalanced, as it is definitely better than the big imbalance that was looming.
Then this can get tuned again in community mod.
Jun 1 2023
I agree it looked weird before.
Indeed effects on gameplay/balance should be negligible. I won't test but I believe this will delay a little bit the start of gathering on slaughtered animals but those are advantageous compared to huntables anyway.
This maybe nerfs corraling a little bit but it was not balanced to start with so whatever.
I checked the tech tree ingame and it appears there is a "friendly fire" feature to their splash damage. Did you observe its effects? It might be important for balance.
May 29 2023
Then go for it for sure, 20 splash still looks like a lot, elephants were strong already in A26 despite there was no splash damage.
From what I've seen in the forum and this patch, it does look like the elephant is super OP and a nerf is needed. I don't have the time to experiment with values now, so go with this if no other feedback.
Jul 21 2022
So it seems there would be now two distinct groups of resources. The primary group directly adjacent to the CC, starting animals, small forest, berries and two mines. And a secondary group somewhat far away but still part of the greater player base. Neutral resources would be outside of the greater area I suppose.
Indeed that's the goal (this emulates fairly well former mainland gameplay except this time resources are balanced)
Jul 12 2022
Jul 10 2022
Feb 22 2022
Of course if there is a new patch to add mainland balanced, it would have to be much smaller and include only that map.
The reason biomes were duplicated was so I could remove the Jungle biome, IIRC it was quite laggy, but of course that would not be something I do if Mainland Balanced gets included in the game.
Dec 21 2021
The ideas I had to make biomes look better was to first of all let them describe more resources, like @wowgetoffyourcellphone did. Some resource/decoration type could be left blank if the biome doesn't feature them and from there, the biome tries to describe as much stuff as possible. And behind this, the map maker would implement as much as they need/want.
This would make map scripts more complex in general (so I guess against what @smiley said if I understood correctly), but well I feel like many random maps currently in the game lack refinement.
Sep 9 2021
Thanks :) Yes I agree that the snow distribution is subotimal, the problem is the the new snow textures don't blend well with other textures, therefore it is hard to reach a natural looking result either way. But I can try the ways you proposed.
It should be noted however, that the current distribution is at least semi realistic. When the first snow falls, the forest floor is usually not covered, as the snow fall on the trees and melts there with the next sunshine.
In spring it is the other way round: snow stars to melt on open ground as the sun shines on it, but the snow that has fallen over the course of the winter inside the forest is covered in shade and survives longer.
That's a nice rework of the map, I like the concept of the new biomes.
Resource distribution has been moved to player.js, where base resources are done.
Sep 3 2021
Updated, now the function works as I intended.
Yes indeed this is what I had in mind.
Aug 30 2021
Here I used the function scaleByMapArea in mainland and I will explain my changes and my non-changes.
- The terrain textures currently scale by map size, however not only their quantity, but also their size scale with map size, so by the same argument used with forests earlier in this patch discussion, even if it is possible to reach a good and natural result using scaling with map area, it is not immediately obvious how to reach it, so I didn't modify this
- The placement of hunt and berry patches only scale with the number of players. As a consequence it looks unnatural, if I generate a 1v1 in giant size the map will be almost empty of hunt and berry patch, and the probability that one of these resources spawn next to a player is very low. Like I justified in this patch, resource placement would be an improvement using scaling with map area, however since it will be even better with my other player resource balancing patch I decided not to change it yet.
- The placement of decorative actors scales with map size, and looking at the values it looks like the intent was to preserve the density with map sizes. However it will always be imperfect using linear interpolation as explained in the patch summary. See how straightforward the conversion to using map area was, and how I didn't need to tune a 'max 'argument.
Aug 28 2021
It should be checked if this is really required. Example maps might convince.
Aug 27 2021
From a technical standpoint, I guess you are trying to replicate AoE2 style distribution where the base resources of berries, 2 boars, etc. In that case, rather than making a swiss army knife of a function for N cases, it might be better to incorporate this into player placement.
In my opinion this just forces a particular type of game
It forces nothing as soon as the meta is different than (rush OR p3 boom with timing attack), which it arguably already is in a25
If you have more berries, then a rush of any type is more likely. If you have more hunt then a rush of any type is more likely.
It is more likely... but it is far from guaranteed. So, if you play in this balanced map and you see you have 1 or 2 patches of berry other than the starting one, what are you going to do? Judge that a rush is more likely, decide to skip scouting, and make more men early and risk being at a disadvantage if the opponent decides to go full boom? Looks like scouting is still useful. Even without additional resources, scouting how much commitment an opponent has booming can still be useful, I have a good replay which shows that.
Additionally, another way to make rushing less predictable in game, would be to have hunt being useful to things different than rush, say booming, or corralling.
Aug 17 2021
Handle square maps
Aug 11 2021
Is it different though? It would make just as much sense to scale forest sizes with areas.
Aug 10 2021
Aug 1 2021
Fixed a bug which could trigger errors on placing players initial resources, and could slow down loading time. Now the map generation should be very reliable.
Added winter biome, and 3 environmental presets that go with it: Sunny, Snowy and Night. For now they are chosen at random. I am not fully sure that I know what I'm doing with environmental settings.
Here is how the map looks like now:
Jul 29 2021
New terrains. Might make a winter biome, and possibly also something more elaborated later on.
Jul 28 2021
- Flood fill now avoids the map border
- Now nomad generations always have enough space
- Better wood generation
- Updated a few gaia entities in reaction to the terrain and map overhaul, however I didn't change terrain, but I am open to suggestions for that.
Update: use flood fill to get an area instead of only connectivity check.
Mar 2 2021
Considering this patch as a standalone (ignoring major gameplay changes that could happen), and from a multiplayer gameplay POV:
- From the few games I played up to now in a24, I would say that in 1v1 mainland, both strategies (making a new Civic Center in town phase, against going straight to city phase without building a new CC) are good depending on the situation. Note that for the 2nd strategy, still building a new CC in the city phase will probably be needed.
- However in teamgames played in mainland expanding with a new CC is generally not worth it.
- That said many maps other than mainland reward expansion.
Feb 24 2021
where one player can be basically entirely surrounded by mountains except for a minor passage near the border, things like that
It is in my plans to add a constraint so that the flood fill passage can't be near the border because indeed that can hurt gameplay.
I will also try to guarantee bigger passages but I don't know to which extent I can go without making the loading time too long.
Feb 22 2021
Feb 7 2021
Jan 25 2021
Not really. We had two +10% cavalry speed technologies, now only one +10%. Before we had a +20% health increase for all cavalry, now it affects only champion cavalry and a new one with +10% health.
Fair points. The speed technologies were quite expensive though.
In general the ranged cavalry was very nerfed compared to the a23. Now you need stables for mass training, range and attack is reduced, spear cavalry has its bonus increased and sword cavalry is more effective against ranged units, including cavalry of course.
To compensate there are 2 new technologies for cavalry (speed and health) whereas infantry doesn't get any of this. Also now forge technologies that affect cavalry also affects infantry so it makes it a bit easier for cav player since sometimes they will want to fight with infantry too.
The train time of cavalry has been relatively reduced compared to infantry (+2 seconds for infantry when they were at 10, +1 second for cavalry when they were at 15 iirc) so it makes them easier to mass. Also persian for example has 2 technologies that reduces train time by 10% for archer cav
Range is reduced but spread as well so they are more accurate.
The formation change makes it easier to hit and run.
Jan 20 2021
Good for me, the fire values before the patch had very little effect.
I think Freagarach's values are a bit more natural, it makes fire damage more continuous.
I used svn's context menu on windows.
I asked someone else and they also could apply the patch just fine so no problem.
Can do that.
This is blatantly untrue. They had 150 crush / 1.5 s in A21, A22, A23 and still do in A24.
I guess borg looked at roman ram and forgot about the bonus. That number also felt familiar to me.
I'm also fine with not changing because of the new siege technologies and also because after all there were a lot of complaints about rams in a23
I had this error on applying the patch:
I think there is an issue with the patch (file path)
I see. Then just in case I will do some experiments with the new values I think.
Indeed as of right now siege technologies are almost never researched. Looking at the modifications the new values seem good, nothing will be broken.
Indeed as of right now iber champion cavalry's fire damage has very little effect. I like the proposals in this patch, either borg or Freagarach values
That said are Freagarach's values really equivalent? For example if an iber champion cavalry constantly attacks a building, is the 'Duration' constantly extended or something different happens?
I agree with this line of thought (there's also the fact that if a bunch of sword champions are garrisoned in a fortress for exemple, and that a ram attack if, then they can unload, melt it in 1-2 seconds and go back in)
That said their cost was a bit reduced. Just in case I'll try to talk to Valihrant today about this patch.
I like this patch because it goes well with the defense upgrades rework that is already in, and it will not (or at least, less) lock players into an army composition they invested in (like they can switch from cav to infantry and vice versa if they have to)
That said the first technology might be a bit expensive but I think it's an improvement.
Good for me.
The reason I want to see this in a24 is that it will act as a buff to corraling, encouraging players to consider this option.
I think I remember Valihrant agreeing with that too when we played a game.
Jan 19 2021
Oh and yes, I think it would be a good call to raise cattle time like you said
Indeed they are, I rather like it, but since this patch goes a little bit against my policy which is to be careful of patches that could change balance in a not 100% known way just before balancing freeze, I would invite other players to state if they feel it's dangerous
Could you elaborate? I'm confused now, 25% of what? And 20 to 40 s looks better than 30 to 60 s, doesn't it?
When writing this post I didn't see that you already modified the patch, but I meant a 25% reduction from animals original training time.
Now the new values are a buff of corrals, which I'm good with. However I don't know the stance of other players about it.
I initiated the idea of reducing range because my feeling was that archers were possibly too strong, and that it would also make the game a bit nicer (and also fixed buildings range).
My fears for this patch is that it will have unknown effects for balance, it could change quite a bit the balance between ranged units, and we don't have the time or the means to do proper tests for a24
It could work, although i'd prefer 25%, but I think an additionnal problem with this approach is that train time values are supposed to look good in the beginning if you see what I mean
If the question is between having a cost or not for this tech, I'm fine with anything I guess. I'd also have been fine with keeping training in fortress.
This patch nerfs corralling to the ground (and it was already difficult and arguably subpar against farming). There needs to be some compensation, like reducing base animal training stats by quite a bit (like the values after researching the technology that is getting removed)
Jan 18 2021
I'll copy my arguments from the balancing PM here:
"2 things changed that lead toward the same effects: the effect of economy technologies have been increased a lot for the early phases of the game (from +15% to +25% for anything that is not food, +15% to +20% for food I believe). Secondly, the train time of citizen soldiers and women also increased.
Jan 14 2021
Adjusted player placement so that they spawn further apart (on low player numbers) which reduces the imbalance in player positions.
I didn't yet replace the unreachable trees on mountains by their actor variation, because some of them are placed with a TerrainPainter which requires a template.
Jan 12 2021
Adjusted values in previously deprecated functions
Well probably not actually otherwise the deprecated functions placeholder wouldn't be needed. Plus I just reread the ticket so indeed there is no equivalence. I'll adjust the values if necessary
If I recall from my whacky memories, createObjectGroupsDeprecated is equivalent to a createObjectGroups call with a retryFactor of 0, is that correct?
Bug fix required for D2830 to work.
Hi, after I realized that the look of this version of the map might not be as bad as I thought back then, I decided to rebase it to open it once again for feedback.
When evaluating the look of the map I recommend to sometimes generate it with the fog of war, as seeing it from a players perspective can be different from having all revealed.
Jul 4 2020
In a21 where champions were more used, spartan and macedonian champions were quite popular with the previous values of the technologies, which encourages me to think the techs shouldn't be buffed too much.
I also wondered why they were the same when I started the game. The values look good to me. Still ping @borg-
Jul 3 2020
Understandably so. If the train time is removed then the tech should at least cost equal amount of resources than the macedonian silver shields (like now)
I'm fine with it too but the fact that macedonian champions are almost equal to spartan ones, but train 10% faster bothers me a bit but arguably this is compensated by tech cost.
Discard the preceding post, it was not up to date. The changes look good to me
I completely missed that he changed the stats (had probably another version in mind), then it is fine. Now spartan champion might be a little bit too strong but this is probably fine.
The changes are good for war horses
For silvershields, the tech will still remain better than the spartan agoge. (macedonian spear champion remain a little bit stronger and train faster than the spartan equivalent after the techs). This is not necessarily a problem by itself but I just want that this is recognized before accepting the patch.
Jul 2 2020
Feel free to suggest different values.
I would suggest not to change champion elephant stat so as to keep current balance for them (which has been achieved by the patch I linked)
I don't understand (in particular the values @borg- suggested), this nullifies half of the work done in D2575(@ValihrAnt). Having hack attack is justified by elephants being good against humans, the walk speed could be justified by armor values (but I can understand why we would want it to be the same as other elephants, that works too).
Does it affect the regeneration rate of all buildings ?
The changes are good. Small thing to note though, this makes the upgrade arguably inferior to the macedonian silver shields upgrade (especially for the train time increase). I don't know if this should be considered a problem or not.
After quick playtest I don't think it will have much impact on gameplay for everything not related to combat. For combat (raiding in particular) there might be a need for multiplayer testgames to get a better feel of it.
I think that this nerfs dance up to a reasonable point. Here are some details I got from my testing :
First note that when testing (for everyone that is interested in that) it's important to know the difference between singleplayer and multiplayer. In multiplayer, IIRC there is 1 turn every 0.5 seconds (which makes traditional dancing easier). In singleplayer, things are much smoother. When testing, you should go multiplayer -> Host game (even if no other human players will join you).
- There is one variant of dancing i came up with trying to break this patch, however it works only in singleplayer, not in multiplayer (because somehow this requires perfect timing). It consists in clicking a resource and then repeatly hit the stop hotkey, then back to work hotkey, then stop hotkey again etc. Works a bit differently between attack stances and no attack stances. As i said it shouldn't be a problem but i say it just in case.
- Even if formation dancing is not fixed this should be less of a problem (because it is easier to call out formation dancing) but some players that don't care could still do it i guess.
- Other than that it is still possible to dance between resources (depending on the situation this can require good accuracy from the player though) but despite that it's still good to not waste time turning going for ressources / buildings for the gameplay I think. That also is made a bit easier to call out, and impossible to do for heroes, very situational for cavalry. Dancing with infantry citizen soldiers is harder due to low speed and HP. (But in the end still possible).
Jul 1 2020
Jun 30 2020
This can be an interesting idea to nerf celtic civilisations. One thing to discuss would be if that makes sense to make a separation when the justification of that tech is for celtic structures. I would be interested in the opinions of Valihrant and borg on this.
Also, just to makes sure, does that give back the 5 population increase on docks for gauls ?
Units don't get increases in other stats (e.g. armour, attack damage, resource gather rates) automatically from phasing up, separate technologies are for that, so why should phases increase citizen health?
They shouldn't necessarily do that, but all current numbers for balancing depend more or less from that. Removing health increase will nerf citizen soldiers and can lead to unknown consequences
Different players have different play styles. Not everyone is interested in competitive multiplayer. Many people are perfectly happy with single-player vs the Petra AI.
The point is that these phase stat increases strongly favour a particular play style, punishing players wanting to explore different strategies.
But isn't that the point of gameplay balancing ? By removing the scaling of RegenRate you will either heavily favour focusing on capturing things in the late game, or you will make trying to capture useless in early game, or maybe both. It will punish players wanting to try different strategies and, if that turns out to be a balance problem, could lead to the usual complaints on the forum, which should also be perfectly valid for single players, and that will be a bit different than "I'm in the Village phase and researched 0 technologies, my opponent is in City phase, and I die, how could this be happening?". Plus I don't think think this prevents players to go with other strategies if they ever wish to. They can stay in the Village phase for a long time if they ever wish to, but first, they should expect it to be inferior, and then, if they don't want to compensate with some other smart ressource spending choices (like training more soldiers), they should reduce the level of the AI. Plus, the AI should be quite bad at exploiting players weaknesses.
Good changes. I still kind of wish small pyramid to be just a little bit cheaper but new values are an improvement.
The monumental architecture technology, either before or after the patch will probably not be used much, but it's good that it got cheaper.