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[gameplay] tweak spartans_agoge tech.
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Authored by borg- on Tue, Jun 30, 3:07 AM.

Details

Summary

Well, i am not a specialist in history, however i think the agoge wasonly to spartan citizens.
The "Perioikoi Hoplites " were not Spartan citizens, so tech shouldn't affect all Hoplites, only Spartiates.

Decreases the cost of tech as it no longer affects hoplite citizens.

EDIT: Spartan champion are supposed to be the strongest infantry in the game (spearman). Macedonian Champion Silver Shields are equivalent and without the training time penalty acquired with "agoge" tech. See also D2867 D2868.

Patch decrease cost from 500 food 500 metal to 500 food 200 metal (cheaper than "silver shields" tech).

Test Plan

Check mistakes and two units + tech on 1v1 duel.

Diff Detail

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Event Timeline

borg- created this revision.Tue, Jun 30, 3:07 AM

Please change line 9 to:

	"tooltip": "Champion Infantry Spearmen +25% health, but +10% training time.",
Nescio added inline comments.Tue, Jun 30, 11:29 AM
spartans_agoge.json
5

While at it, you could properly indent this:

	"requirements": {
		"all": [
			{ "tech": "phase_city" },
			{ "civ": "spart" }
		]
	},
Nescio accepted this revision.Tue, Jun 30, 12:10 PM
This revision is now accepted and ready to land.Tue, Jun 30, 12:10 PM
Lionkanzen accepted this revision.Wed, Jul 1, 5:50 PM

Look fine.

The changes are good. Small thing to note though, this makes the upgrade arguably inferior to the macedonian silver shields upgrade (especially for the train time increase). I don't know if this should be considered a problem or not.

Nescio added a comment.Thu, Jul 2, 1:35 PM

Maybe update that technology too then (either here or in a separate patch), and also special_war_horses.json.

borg- updated this revision to Diff 12533.Fri, Jul 3, 12:40 AM
borg- retitled this revision from [gameplay] Fix issue in "spartans_agoge" tech. to [gameplay] Fix issue / balance "spartans_agoge" tech..
borg- edited the summary of this revision. (Show Details)
borg- edited the test plan for this revision. (Show Details)
Stan added a subscriber: Stan.Fri, Jul 3, 9:54 AM

@Feldfeld care to accept again if it's good?

Nescio added a comment.EditedFri, Jul 3, 11:22 AM

Actually I prefer the previous version.
Also, the indentation of the city phase line is wrong, crush damage is missing (see other technologies), and the modifications are not in alphabetical order.

badosu added a subscriber: badosu.EditedFri, Jul 3, 1:15 PM

I'm not too sure about this change, seems too specific to be actually useful. Sparta already has issues with its population limit and special techs like this alleviated the problem a bit, even though not often used.

Of course, if champions are back in the meta in a24 I could definitely see this as a good change, even then I'm not sure it's worth it.

It would be interesting to see absolute hoplite units in the late game, but I'm not too hopeful since I'm afraid mass spears will continue not having a big role in a24. Which is a shame since historically that would be the most accurate depiction for most civs.

Nescio added a comment.Fri, Jul 3, 1:27 PM

Sparta already has issues with its population limit

D2535

In D2846#122473, @Stan wrote:

@Feldfeld care to accept again if it's good?

I just want to make sure the comparison with macedonian silver shield is settled before accepting it

Nescio added a comment.Fri, Jul 3, 9:14 PM

The upgrade_mace_silvershields.json technology costs 1000 metal and 40 seconds and results in having them +1 armour level and +10% health, which together is equivalent to a 22% health increase. I'd say the Spartan technology is better, even without this patch.

I completely missed that he changed the stats (had probably another version in mind), then it is fine. Now spartan champion might be a little bit too strong but this is probably fine.

Nescio added a comment.Fri, Jul 3, 9:27 PM

Actually I prefer the previous version, keeping the modifications unchanged, but reducing the cost, to compensate for the fact it is limited to champions. (How about 600 food, 300 metal, 60 seconds? Food is much less a valuable in late game than metal.)

I'm fine with it too but the fact that macedonian champions are almost equal to spartan ones, but train 10% faster bothers me a bit but arguably this is compensated by tech cost.

Nescio added a comment.Fri, Jul 3, 9:55 PM

Well, I'm not particularly attached to the training time bit, it can be removed, but +30% health and +10% attack damage seems rather excessive.

Understandably so. If the train time is removed then the tech should at least cost equal amount of resources than the macedonian silver shields (like now)

borg- added a comment.EditedFri, Jul 3, 10:35 PM

@Nescio @Feldfeld
What about:

+15% health, 1/1 armour upgrade, cost 700 metal for mace champ
+20% health, +15% attack, +10% training time, cost 300f 300m for spartan champ

historically,

Agoge = strength + skill;
Silver shield = armour/defense (it's just cost only metal).

borg- added a comment.Sat, Jul 4, 2:19 AM

Actually I prefer the previous version.
Also, the indentation of the city phase line is wrong, crush damage is missing (see other technologies), and the modifications are not in alphabetical order.

@Nescio pls, what would be the correct identification and alphabetical order?

I up new patch with new values.

borg- updated this revision to Diff 12539.Sat, Jul 4, 2:25 AM
borg- edited the summary of this revision. (Show Details)
Stan added a comment.Sat, Jul 4, 12:05 PM

I think you can change this patch to request review or something

In a21 where champions were more used, spartan and macedonian champions were quite popular with the previous values of the technologies, which encourages me to think the techs shouldn't be buffed too much.

borg- added a comment.Sat, Jul 4, 2:38 PM

In a21 where champions were more used, spartan and macedonian champions were quite popular with the previous values of the technologies, which encourages me to think the techs shouldn't be buffed too much.

Ok, what about 15% health, 15% attack for agoge and only +20% health (no add armour) for silver Shields?

Nescio added a comment.Sat, Jul 4, 5:25 PM

Given the direction of the discussion here, I'd recommend including both changing spartans_agoge.json and tweaking upgrade_mace_silvershields.json (and perhaps the mace_champion_infantry_e.xml template) here in this patch.

For the special_war_horses.json discussion, please go to D2856 (which I've commandeered and redone, I hope you don't mind).

historically,
Agoge = strength + skill;
Silver shield = armour/defense (it's just cost only metal).

No and no. The famous Spartan Agoge programme involved sports, singing, dancing, and chasing hares into nets and clubbing them to death, but no actual combat training (Greek hoplites were untrained citizens). The purpose was basically fostering social cohesion and having a high esprit de corps; not completely unlike British public schools (i.e. private boarding schools) or student societies at modern universities. Therefore I'm not quite sure having it increase attack damage is really appropiate.
As for the silver shields, they were the hardened veterans of Alexander's army. The name indicates their shields were decorated with some silver mark, raising their prestige and social standing.

borg- added a comment.Sat, Jul 4, 5:31 PM

Ok, tnx for information.

The addition of the attack may have a historical context based on the skills that Spartan soldiers had in combat.
it also helps to differentiate the two techs.

Nescio added a comment.Sat, Jul 4, 5:33 PM

it also helps to differentiate the two techs.

Why not keep the Agoge as is (+25% health, +10% training time), but change silver shields (template) to +10% health and +10% attack damage?

borg- added a comment.Sat, Jul 4, 5:41 PM

it also helps to differentiate the two techs.

Why not keep the Agoge as is (+25% health, +10% training time), but change silver shields (template) to +10% health and +10% attack damage?

Ok, historically make more sense attack to silver shield than spartans?

What about new value 300/300?

Nescio added a comment.Sat, Jul 4, 5:43 PM

Ok, historically make more sense attack to silver shield than spartans?

Yes!

What about new value 300/300?

That seems a bit cheap.

borg- added a comment.EditedSat, Jul 4, 5:48 PM

Ok, historically make more sense attack to silver shield than spartans?

Yes!

What about new value 300/300?

That seems a bit cheap.

Ok, i will make this changes.
I think sparta cab be a infantry tech more cheaper, since is a infantry based civ. Some civs should be diferents tech values.

Nescio added a comment.Sat, Jul 4, 5:51 PM

And value 500 food 200 metal.

For the Agoge? Sounds good.
For the silver shields, how about 1000 metal + 40 seconds → 600 metal + 60 seconds?

borg- added a comment.Sat, Jul 4, 6:19 PM

For the silver shields, how about 1000 metal + 40 seconds → 600 metal + 60 seconds?

Y, seems a better number.

borg- updated this revision to Diff 12588.Wed, Jul 8, 3:04 AM
borg- retitled this revision from [gameplay] Fix issue / balance "spartans_agoge" tech. to [gameplay] tweak spartans_agoge tech..
borg- edited the summary of this revision. (Show Details)

300 food + 300 metal looks a bit unimpressive. What happened to the 500 food + 200 metal suggested earlier?

borg- added a comment.EditedWed, Jul 8, 1:44 PM

300 food + 300 metal looks a bit unimpressive. What happened to the 500 food + 200 metal suggested earlier?

If 10% attack is same to +1 armor, what about 30% health and 500f/200m?

If 10% attack is same to +1 armor, what about 30% health and 500f/200m?

Yes, +1 armour level, +10% health, and +10% attack damage, whilst not identical, are broadly equivalent. As pointed out before, +25% health already is a lot, raising it to +30% seems excessive.
However, not all resources are equally valuable. Metal especially can become problematic in the late game, whereas food is basically unlimited. Moreover, getting smaller amounts of different resources is easier than a lot of just one. One should not only look at the resource total, but also at the individual numbers. There are no hard and fast rules, though.

As for this patch, I agree limiting it to champions makes sense, the current modifications are fine and don't need changing, but the cost of 500 food + 500 metal is too much and needs to be lowered. I just happen to have a minor preference for 500 food + 200 metal over 300 food + 300 metal, which feels cheaper than the 600 metal proposed in D2867. Anyway, it's not terribly important.
Other opinions are most certainly welcome.

borg- added a comment.Wed, Jul 8, 11:04 PM

What about remove 10% training time and 500f0200m?

borg- updated this revision to Diff 12596.Thu, Jul 9, 12:25 AM

Change cost to 500 food 200 metal suggested by @Nescio.
decrease penalty 10% to 5%.

borg- updated this revision to Diff 12598.Thu, Jul 9, 12:29 AM
borg- edited the summary of this revision. (Show Details)
Angen added a subscriber: Angen.Fri, Jul 10, 3:59 PM

The "Perioikoi Hoplites " were not Spartan citizens

Then I guess we should find new unit for spartans

borg- added a comment.Fri, Jul 10, 4:05 PM
In D2846#123259, @Angen wrote:

The "Perioikoi Hoplites " were not Spartan citizens

Then I guess we should find new unit for spartans

Perioikoi is a free man but not spartan citizen. They are workers, so i think dont need new unit.