Page MenuHomeWildfire Games

Balance Fanatic
ClosedPublic

Authored by borg- on Jun 21 2022, 12:54 AM.

Details

Summary

Fanatics are little used in a25. Usually used to kill women and capture some buildings. I think it performs this function well, but I would like it to be able to compose larger armies, where it would be more useful in late game. My idea is to keep your maximum resource cost of 220, but increase food and wood and decrease metal. He's a unit that wears no armor, so the metal reduction makes sense. This should make your training easier in age 2. I also added an aura that can help with the composition of the army in late game by decreasing the attack of nearby enemy soldiers and also a chase aura, where enemies slow down your movement speed, allowing fanatics to chase units more easily, besides that if you have a composition of cavalry + fanatics it can be very interesting.

Test Plan

Check if changes arise positive effect on the unit.
Check if everything is working correctly.

Diff Detail

Repository
rP 0 A.D. Public Repository
Lint
Automatic diff as part of commit; lint not applicable.
Unit
Automatic diff as part of commit; unit tests not applicable.

Event Timeline

borg- created this revision.Jun 21 2022, 12:54 AM

Build failure - The Moirai have given mortals hearts that can endure.

Link to build: https://jenkins.wildfiregames.com/job/macos-differential/6197/display/redirect

Build failure - The Moirai have given mortals hearts that can endure.

Link to build: https://jenkins.wildfiregames.com/job/docker-differential/7893/display/redirect

I like it @borg-
Maybe we see if a couple others approve.
It makes sense: a soldier that can run so fast must need to eat a lot because of cardio training XD.

borg- added a comment.EditedJun 21 2022, 4:54 PM

I like it @borg-
Maybe we see if a couple others approve.
It makes sense: a soldier that can run so fast must need to eat a lot because of cardio training XD.

hahaha its true.

Well, maybe replacing attack loss with something smarter and that enhances the unit's qualities might be welcome.

@Stan why revision in draft?

borg- added a subscriber: Stan.Jun 21 2022, 4:56 PM
real_tabasco_sauce added a comment.EditedJun 29 2022, 12:00 AM

@borg-
I think you have to upload the diff from

0ad/

which contains

binaries/data/mods/public/

which is where you have currently generated the diff.

Stan published this revision for review.Jun 30 2022, 3:18 PM

I like this patch a lot. It should make fanatic rushes a lot more interesting, and I think it puts them in a more fitting role for fights.

This revision is now accepted and ready to land.Jun 30 2022, 3:32 PM

It would give them almost the same aura as the carnyx. Maybe give the latter a positive friendly bonus?

public/simulation/data/auras/units/fanatic.json
11 ↗(On Diff #20539)

Any reason why you exclude ranged crush (e.g. crossbowmen, slinger)?

It would give them almost the same aura as the carnyx. Maybe give the latter a positive friendly bonus?

Yes, i think the trumpet man should have a bonus for allied units too. Maybe not damage, but perhaps move speed (horn to charge, coordination in battle). Another option could be some repeat time change. I think a separate patch is required. Here is another nice idea: instead of greek, how about they make a little trumpet sound when they are told to attack?

Fanatics have needed changes since a22 for awhile so good that something is being done.

The aura changes make sense to me.

But I don’t agree that replacing metal makes with wood/food makes it easier to spam the unit. Food is the slowest fathered resource. Gathering wood also requires the constant building of nearby storehouses as the closest wood gets depleted (whereas a single storehouse can service a metal mine for a very long time).

I personally think fanatics are underpowered because cav can do the same thing with lower input costs. The aura should help with that, though. If the aura changes don’t do enough then lowering costs, increasing HP, or increasing armor seem like the two best options to improve fanatic performance (compared to cav)

Fanatics have needed changes since a22 for awhile so good that something is being done.

The aura changes make sense to me.

But I don’t agree that replacing metal makes with wood/food makes it easier to spam the unit. Food is the slowest fathered resource. Gathering wood also requires the constant building of nearby storehouses as the closest wood gets depleted (whereas a single storehouse can service a metal mine for a very long time).

I personally think fanatics are underpowered because cav can do the same thing with lower input costs. The aura should help with that, though. If the aura changes don’t do enough then lowering costs, increasing HP, or increasing armor seem like the two best options to improve fanatic performance (compared to cav)

you might be right here, but at least the gauls get an additional farming upgrade in the storehouse during p2. I would say that makes the food cost more fitting.

Fanatics have needed changes since a22 for awhile so good that something is being done.

The aura changes make sense to me.

But I don’t agree that replacing metal makes with wood/food makes it easier to spam the unit. Food is the slowest fathered resource. Gathering wood also requires the constant building of nearby storehouses as the closest wood gets depleted (whereas a single storehouse can service a metal mine for a very long time).

I personally think fanatics are underpowered because cav can do the same thing with lower input costs. The aura should help with that, though. If the aura changes don’t do enough then lowering costs, increasing HP, or increasing armor seem like the two best options to improve fanatic performance (compared to cav)

you might be right here, but at least the gauls get an additional farming upgrade in the storehouse during p2. I would say that makes the food cost more fitting.

That’s a good point re the special food tech. I’m not sure if a player will be able to afford all those upgrades in time to do a rush, though. Maybe someone will come up with a clever build order for it.

That also made me realize that as we spread out res costs across more resources the cost of units becomes higher because you have to do more eco upgrades for efficiency (see cf. a25 mercs that only require two metal gathering techs for max p2 efficiency)

borg- added a comment.EditedJun 30 2022, 5:04 PM

I need to redo this patch. What @chrstgtr said makes sense. I find it more interesting to increase the cost of wood rather than food.
Also, I think the movement speed aura is enough, we don't need two auras, what do you think?

In D4722#200983, @borg- wrote:

I need to redo this patch. What @chrstgtr said makes sense. I find it more interesting to increase the cost of wood rather than food.
Also, I think the movement speed aura is enough, we don't need two auras, what do you think?

the cost could still be changed some for sure, I think this is a pretty flexible part of the patch. However, I think both auras can stay.

Stan added a comment.Jun 30 2022, 5:24 PM

More auras less performance by the way.

chrstgtr added a comment.EditedJun 30 2022, 5:51 PM
In D4722#200983, @borg- wrote:

I need to redo this patch. What @chrstgtr said makes sense. I find it more interesting to increase the cost of wood rather than food.
Also, I think the movement speed aura is enough, we don't need two auras, what do you think?

the cost could still be changed some for sure, I think this is a pretty flexible part of the patch. However, I think both auras can stay.

I think two auras is fine for a speciality unit like fanatics.

If you prefer only one aura then I think the desired role of fanatics have to be considered. If you want to be more of a fighting unit then I would do damage since that will provide a nice buff against infantry in p2 (which helps make fanatics better compared to cav). If you want fanatics to be anti cav then the chase bonus would be good. I doubt fanatics can be good in a large army because they’re so expensive and die fast. If their auras are strong then maybe they stand in the back on stand ground stance like heroes do now. Personally, I vote for the damage aura OR both auras

EDIT: I think two auras is still possible because fanatics will mostly be in p2 when performance issues aren’t too bad

defc0n added a subscriber: defc0n.Jun 30 2022, 9:03 PM
In D4722#200985, @Stan wrote:

More auras less performance by the way.

I like both auras together, but I would say if performance seems to be a problem with fanas in the RC, then either 1 of the two auras will be good. If just the move speed aura remains in the future, it should probably be like 15%.
The good thing is these units will not typically be massed due to high cost and training from temple. IIRC in 1v1s historically, small groups of fanas run around the enemy and ambush units until the enemy resigns out of frustration.

Could Fanatics be a lot like Fenris Wolves in Age of Mythology? Individually weak, but with an aura that boosts fellow Fanatics around them? A small stackable speed and attack boost. Just a suggestion.

But to this patch, it doesn't look bad. Needs to address @Freagarach 's inline comment though. :)

Could Fanatics be a lot like Fenris Wolves in Age of Mythology? Individually weak, but with an aura that boosts fellow Fanatics around them? A small stackable speed and attack boost. Just a suggestion.

But to this patch, it doesn't look bad. Needs to address @Freagarach 's inline comment though. :)

I still like the current patch, but I also really like Wow’s suggestion and think we should keep it in our pockets for another unit

marder added a subscriber: marder.EditedJul 12 2022, 6:31 PM

I'm not convinced that the current proposed aura is the best way to go.
The attack reduction part makes them similar to the trumpeter, taking away from their (the trumpeters) uniqueness and the speed reduction on its own seems a little bit strange to me.

Looking at the history of changes regarding the fanatics: rP14774 rP20314 rP19697 rP21592 rP18910 rP18155 (not in order)
maybe one of those was just a bit too much of a nerf? Couldn't they have a nice gameplay niche and usability with the right combination of cost + armor + speed alone?

borg- added a comment.Jul 13 2022, 5:36 PM

I'm not convinced that the current proposed aura is the best way to go.
The attack reduction part makes them similar to the trumpeter, taking away from their (the trumpeters) uniqueness and the speed reduction on its own seems a little bit strange to me.

Looking at the history of changes regarding the fanatics: rP14774 rP20314 rP19697 rP21592 rP18910 rP18155 (not in order)
maybe one of those was just a bit too much of a nerf? Couldn't they have a nice gameplay niche and usability with the right combination of cost + armor + speed alone?

Yes, it is possible. Removing its metal cost, increasing damage against cavalry for example, could make a unit special anti-cavalry.

In D4722#201266, @borg- wrote:

I'm not convinced that the current proposed aura is the best way to go.
The attack reduction part makes them similar to the trumpeter, taking away from their (the trumpeters) uniqueness and the speed reduction on its own seems a little bit strange to me.

Looking at the history of changes regarding the fanatics: rP14774 rP20314 rP19697 rP21592 rP18910 rP18155 (not in order)
maybe one of those was just a bit too much of a nerf? Couldn't they have a nice gameplay niche and usability with the right combination of cost + armor + speed alone?

Yes, it is possible. Removing its metal cost, increasing damage against cavalry for example, could make a unit special anti-cavalry.

I think the original metal cost profile @borg- proposed could be good, along with increased hack armor (asymmetric armor stats) as they have a shield, but no body armor. 6 hack armor, 4 pierce. This will allow them to better survive engagements with melee units, while remaining relatively weak to ranged attacks. They are an ambush unit, so this change will better suit that role.

With this change: no need for auras. I think a slight speed increase would be good if they are still weak after this.
Thoughts @borg-, @marder, @chrstgtr, @wowgetoffyourcellphone?

In D4722#201266, @borg- wrote:

I'm not convinced that the current proposed aura is the best way to go.
The attack reduction part makes them similar to the trumpeter, taking away from their (the trumpeters) uniqueness and the speed reduction on its own seems a little bit strange to me.

Looking at the history of changes regarding the fanatics: rP14774 rP20314 rP19697 rP21592 rP18910 rP18155 (not in order)
maybe one of those was just a bit too much of a nerf? Couldn't they have a nice gameplay niche and usability with the right combination of cost + armor + speed alone?

Yes, it is possible. Removing its metal cost, increasing damage against cavalry for example, could make a unit special anti-cavalry.

I think the original metal cost profile @borg- proposed could be good, along with increased hack armor (asymmetric armor stats) as they have a shield, but no body armor. 6 hack armor, 4 pierce. This will allow them to better survive engagements with melee units, while remaining relatively weak to ranged attacks. They are an ambush unit, so this change will better suit that role.

With this change: no need for auras. I think a slight speed increase would be good if they are still weak after this.
Thoughts @borg-, @marder, @chrstgtr, @wowgetoffyourcellphone?

Yeah, I think the easy fix is to give them more hack armor because as melee they have to directly engage in order to do damage. I'm ok with it, but I assumed people wouldn't want it because they are "naked." Outside of the easy fix, I think you have to get creative with what they do (i.e., give an aura or something like that)

yeah, less metal cost and more hack armor sounds ok for me. No need to make it more complicated and the shield is a good enough excuse for the armor imo.

borg- added a comment.Jul 19 2022, 5:00 PM

ok, i'm finishing the sparta patch and today i updated this one.

real_tabasco_sauce added a comment.EditedWed, Jul 27, 3:51 AM
In D4722#201413, @borg- wrote:

ok, i'm finishing the sparta patch and today i updated this one.

I can't see the update for this patch.

borg- updated this revision to Diff 20676.Fri, Jul 29, 3:08 AM
borg- edited the test plan for this revision. (Show Details)
  • Auras removed
  • +1 hack armor
  • Remove metal cost, half the cost of metal goes to food and half to wood
chrstgtr accepted this revision.Fri, Jul 29, 5:33 AM
marder accepted this revision.Fri, Jul 29, 10:01 AM

Lgtm

I think we are in feature freeze, but this is a really good change. Is it possible this makes it in a26?

I think we are in feature freeze, but this is a really good change. Is it possible this makes it in a26?

Actually, is this technically a new feature? It is just changing values, so maybe not.

I would like to cut the metal cost of fanatics. If the metal cost is fully removed, I am afraid it just will be fairly easy to spam and function as a superior spearman.

I would like to cut the metal cost of fanatics. If the metal cost is fully removed, I am afraid it just will be fairly easy to spam and function as a superior spearman.

I expect their slower (champion) train time and limitation to the temple should limit any spam abuse.
However, I would be fine with either 120 food 100 wood OR 100 food 100 wood 20 metal.

I would like to cut the metal cost of fanatics. If the metal cost is fully removed, I am afraid it just will be fairly easy to spam and function as a superior spearman.

Food is gathered more slowly than metal, they’re more expensive units, and have slower train times. I don’t think this is a disqualifying concern.

If anything, they might become like a more expensive, slower trained spear cav that isn’t vulnerable to a spear attack multiplier. I am ok with that.

I am ok to try it as it is right now.
If it's not ok you can blame me and ping me to make a hotfix/ last minute adjustments.

This revision was automatically updated to reflect the committed changes.

I would like to cut the metal cost of fanatics. If the metal cost is fully removed, I am afraid it just will be fairly easy to spam and function as a superior spearman.

Food is gathered more slowly than metal, they’re more expensive units, and have slower train times. I don’t think this is a disqualifying concern.

If anything, they might become like a more expensive, slower trained spear cav that isn’t vulnerable to a spear attack multiplier. I am ok with that.

To be honest, their high food cost would make them mutually exclusive with cavalry to some extent, which I think is a good thing.