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[gameplay] tweak archery_tradition tech.
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Authored by borg- on Jul 13 2020, 4:54 AM.

Details

Reviewers
wraitii
Nescio
Group Reviewers
Restricted Owners Package(Owns No Changed Paths)
Commits
rP23891: Buff "archery tradition" tech.
Summary

Archery_tadition it's never used, basically for two reasons:

  • Penalty is greater than the gains;
  • Tooltipe are bad (does not specify the gain of accuracy);

Proposal:

  • Remove penalty of -20% health (archers are already "weak" and have low health, if you remove 20% they are really very weak);
  • Remove food cost and increase metal cost;
  • Decrease spread from -20% to -10%;
  • Decrease training time from -20% to -10%;
  • Decrease Max range from 10 to 8;
  • Correct tooltip.

Initial patch by @borg-, updated by @Nescio.

Test Plan

Check mistakes.

Diff Detail

Repository
rP 0 A.D. Public Repository
Lint
Automatic diff as part of commit; lint not applicable.
Unit
Automatic diff as part of commit; unit tests not applicable.

Event Timeline

borg- created this revision.Jul 13 2020, 4:54 AM

Removing the health penalty makes sense, since it affects all archers (elephants, champion chariots, etc.), not just citizen infantry.
This technology is already quite expensive, especially for a village phase technology; making it more expensive is not an improvement; how about making it cheaper but less effective? E.g. something along the lines of:

		{ "value": "Attack/Ranged/PrepareTime", "multiply": 0.9 },
		{ "value": "Attack/Ranged/RepeatTime", "multiply": 0.9 },
		{ "value": "Attack/Ranged/Spread", "multiply": 0.9 },
		{ "value": "Cost/BuildTime", "multiply": 0.9 }
borg- added a comment.EditedJul 13 2020, 6:47 PM

Removing the health penalty makes sense, since it affects all archers (elephants, champion chariots, etc.), not just citizen infantry.
This technology is already quite expensive, especially for a village phase technology; making it more expensive is not an improvement; how about making it cheaper but less effective? E.g. something along the lines of:

		{ "value": "Attack/Ranged/PrepareTime", "multiply": 0.9 },
		{ "value": "Attack/Ranged/RepeatTime", "multiply": 0.9 },
		{ "value": "Attack/Ranged/Spread", "multiply": 0.9 },
		{ "value": "Cost/BuildTime", "multiply": 0.9 }

Champion archer already has a very high rate of fire, that would be bad. How about just lower the cost a bit, like 600w/350m?

25% training time reduction and 20% less spread seem rather powerful, especially without a penalty to compensate, I think 10% would be more appropiate. And the range increase could be lowered as well, perhaps +8?
I'm just floating some ideas to consider, other suggestions are certainly welcome.

borg- updated this revision to Diff 12659.Jul 14 2020, 1:25 AM
borg- edited the summary of this revision. (Show Details)
borg- added a comment.Jul 14 2020, 1:27 AM

Up patch. Suggested values by @Nescio.

borg- updated this revision to Diff 12661.Jul 14 2020, 2:42 AM
Nescio added inline comments.Jul 14 2020, 10:10 AM
archery_tradition.json
20 ↗(On Diff #12661)

Please use a proper minus sign (− U+2212), not an hyphen-minus (-), see tooltips in other files and https://trac.wildfiregames.com/wiki/EnglishStyleGuide#Unicode

25 ↗(On Diff #12661)

A 20% time reduction is still a lot, maybe lower it too?

borg- updated this revision to Diff 12680.Jul 15 2020, 2:07 AM
borg- edited the summary of this revision. (Show Details)
borg- added a comment.Jul 15 2020, 2:46 AM

Up patch, new values by @Nescio

Nescio added inline comments.Jul 15 2020, 10:36 AM
archery_tradition.json
24–25 ↗(On Diff #12680)

While at it, could you alphabetize the modifications, i.e. list Cost above Vision?

Stan added a subscriber: Stan.Jul 15 2020, 11:31 AM

Could you also generate the patch from the root eg the folder where there is source, binaries, libraries build etc, not the folder, and add context

svn diff -x -U5000 .
borg- updated this revision to Diff 12701.Jul 16 2020, 2:12 AM

Up patch, correct alphabetical order.

Current ranged soldier maximum ranges:

24 basic infantry javelinist
28 basic cavalry javelinist
28 champion infantry javelinist
32 champion cavalry javelinist
32 hero infantry javelinist
36 hero cavalry javelinist

48 basic infantry slinger

72 basic infantry archer
72 basic cavalry archer
76 champion infantry archer
76 champion cavalry archer
80 hero infantry archer
80 hero cavalry archer

Since they're all multiples of 4, how about changing the archery range bonus from 10 to 8?

archery_tradition.json
20 ↗(On Diff #12701)

"Archers −10% training time, +10 attack range, and −10% ranged attack spread."

borg- updated this revision to Diff 12710.Jul 16 2020, 12:08 PM

Attack range 8 per @Nescio

Nescio added inline comments.Jul 16 2020, 12:11 PM
archery_tradition.json
20 ↗(On Diff #12710)

"Archers −10% training time, +8 attack range, and −10% ranged attack spread."

borg- added a comment.EditedJul 16 2020, 12:20 PM

Edit

borg- updated this revision to Diff 12711.Jul 16 2020, 12:27 PM

Correct tooltip.

Consider that increasing the range reduces the spread at equivalent-distance. I don't know if the current values are fair.

You are still increasing max range by 10 despite the tooltip.

Nescio added inline comments.Jul 16 2020, 12:31 PM
archery_tradition.json
22 ↗(On Diff #12711)

?

borg- added a comment.EditedJul 16 2020, 12:35 PM

Sorry, i forgot attack range, i cant change now.
@Nescio you can change for me, please?

Nescio updated this revision to Diff 12713.Jul 16 2020, 12:51 PM
Nescio edited the summary of this revision. (Show Details)
  • updated
  • also replace icon
Nescio updated this revision to Diff 12714.Jul 16 2020, 12:58 PM
  • tooltip
Nescio edited reviewers, added: Restricted Owners Package; removed: Feldfeld, Nescio, Lionkanzen.Jul 16 2020, 1:03 PM

Consider that increasing the range reduces the spread at equivalent-distance.

Good point! Maybe limit this technology to only a training time and spread reduction (and make it even cheaper)? The range increase could go into a separate technology (or a civ bonus).
That could also be explored in a future patch. The current changes look good to me and are already a clear improvement.

wraitii accepted this revision.Jul 16 2020, 1:57 PM

Seems reasonable in general, and an improvement if the tech is currently seen as underpowered.

In general I disliked our "tradeoff" techs, since the tradeoff is already present in the resource cost.

binaries/data/mods/public/simulation/data/technologies/archery_tradition.json
20 ↗(On Diff #12714)

I suppose +8 range would be more accurate since it's also visual range.

This revision is now accepted and ready to land.Jul 16 2020, 1:57 PM
Nescio added inline comments.Jul 16 2020, 2:12 PM
binaries/data/mods/public/simulation/data/technologies/archery_tradition.json
20 ↗(On Diff #12714)

No, "+8 range" is ambiguous (not just attack and vision have a range, but also e.g. alarm, auras, gather distance, heal, territory influence). More accurate would be "+8 vision range, +8 attack range". However, the vision range is only increased because of the attack range. (I think this is ugly.)

borg- added a comment.Jul 16 2020, 2:19 PM

In general I disliked our "tradeoff" techs, since the tradeoff is already present in the resource cost.

Exactly!!!

borg- updated this revision to Diff 12797.Jul 20 2020, 5:17 AM

Up. Update maur.json, pers.json, kush.json.

Nescio added inline comments.Jul 20 2020, 9:07 AM
data/civs/kush.json
23 ↗(On Diff #12797)

"Kushite people" → "Kushites"
People is superfluous in this case.

data/civs/maur.json
22 ↗(On Diff #12797)

"people" → "peoples"
The plural is intentional.

data/civs/pers.json
22 ↗(On Diff #12797)

"people" → "peoples"
The plural is intentional.

borg- updated this revision to Diff 12827.Jul 21 2020, 1:41 AM
borg- edited the summary of this revision. (Show Details)

Up with correct orthography. Tnx @Nescio!!!

Nescio accepted this revision.Jul 21 2020, 11:00 AM
  • The patch is correct and complete.
  • The changes make sense.
wraitii updated this revision to Diff 12906.Jul 25 2020, 10:07 AM

Rebase, context, for merging.

This revision was automatically updated to reflect the committed changes.