In D2856#122653, @Nescio wrote:

Why remove silver shields?

Better include them in D2846, given the discussion there.

600f/300m is very expensive If its affect only one unit.

Given that this effectively means +80 health, I think it's worth it.
Food shouldn't be too much of a problem in late game, and the silver shields technology also affects only one unit, but costs 1000 metal.

it also helps to differentiate the two techs.

Why not keep the Agoge as is (+25% health, +10% training time), but change silver shields (template) to +10% health and +10% attack damage?

Ok, tnx for information.

Why remove silver shields?

Better include them in D2846, given the discussion there.

600f/300m is very expensive If its affect only one unit.

Given that this effectively means +80 health, I think it's worth it.
Food shouldn't be too much of a problem in late game, and the silver shields technology also affects only one unit, but costs 1000 metal.

Given the direction of the discussion here, I'd recommend including both changing spartans_agoge.json and tweaking upgrade_mace_silvershields.json (and perhaps the mace_champion_infantry_e.xml template) here in this patch.

Why remove silver Shields?

Successful build - Chance fights ever on the side of the prudent.

Changed special_war_horses technology:

• limited to Champion Cavalry Spearman
• increased health bonus to 25%, but added 10% training time (cf. Agoge)
• raised cost to

Successful build - Chance fights ever on the side of the prudent.

Play a different sound depending on whether you were defeated, an ally was or an enemy was.

Successful build - Chance fights ever on the side of the prudent.

• rebased

Fair enough

@Nescio shouldn't this affect heroes somehow too? Same question for the worker elephant

Only Mauryas have worker elephants and elephant archers. They're unlikely to be added to other civilizations, therefore I think it's fine.
For elephant heroes what is importance is the hero, not the elephant. I preferred not to touch them here, there are already a few patches discussing hero auras and stats.

Ah nice! Didn't see your comment until now. Should I abandon this?

Can you close this, I forgot to reference the commit :/

Successful build - Chance fights ever on the side of the prudent.

Rebase.

@Nescio shouldn't this affect heroes somehow too? Same question for the worker elephant

In D2861#122604, @Stan wrote:

Please accept the patch then :)

I think 1.5 repeat time are better, but im ok with this values.

Please accept the patch then :)

In D2846#122598, @Feldfeld wrote:

In a21 where champions were more used, spartan and macedonian champions were quite popular with the previous values of the technologies, which encourages me to think the techs shouldn't be buffed too much.

I think current rs is ok. It looks fine. Not too fast and not too slow.

In D2861#122593, @Feldfeld wrote:

I also wondered why they were the same when I started the game. The values look good to me. Still ping @borg-

In a21 where champions were more used, spartan and macedonian champions were quite popular with the previous values of the technologies, which encourages me to think the techs shouldn't be buffed too much.

This is a bit heart breaking as it was my first animated model, but history seems to have spoken.

I also wondered why they were the same when I started the game. The values look good to me. Still ping @borg-

Does this need a rebase?

Changes look good and are harmless.

@nani can you update the patch? and/or plan changes?

@s0600204 thoughts on this?

I think you can change this patch to request review or something

@borg- thoughts?

@Nescio @Feldfeld check new values. I will make other patch for silver shield values.

Up new patch.

In D2846#122474, @Nescio wrote:

Actually I prefer the previous version.
Also, the indentation of the city phase line is wrong, crush damage is missing (see other technologies), and the modifications are not in alphabetical order.

What about:

+25% health and no armour upgrade for mace champ, cost 700 metal
+25% health and 10% attack + 10% training time, cost 350f 350m for spartan champ?

Understandably so. If the train time is removed then the tech should at least cost equal amount of resources than the macedonian silver shields (like now)

Well, I'm not particularly attached to the training time bit, it can be removed, but +30% health and +10% attack damage seems rather excessive.

I'm fine with it too but the fact that macedonian champions are almost equal to spartan ones, but train 10% faster bothers me a bit but arguably this is compensated by tech cost.

Actually I prefer the previous version, keeping the modifications unchanged, but reducing the cost, to compensate for the fact it is limited to champions. (How about 600 food, 300 metal, 60 seconds? Food is much less a valuable in late game than metal.)

Discard the preceding post, it was not up to date. The changes look good to me

I completely missed that he changed the stats (had probably another version in mind), then it is fine. Now spartan champion might be a little bit too strong but this is probably fine.

The upgrade_mace_silvershields.json technology costs 1000 metal and 40 seconds and results in having them +1 armour level and +10% health, which together is equivalent to a 22% health increase. I'd say the Spartan technology is better, even without this patch.

In D2846#122473, @Stan wrote:

@Feldfeld care to accept again if it's good?

The changes are good for war horses
For silvershields, the tech will still remain better than the spartan agoge. (macedonian spear champion remain a little bit stronger and train faster than the spartan equivalent after the techs). This is not necessarily a problem by itself but I just want that this is recognized before accepting the patch.

Successful build - Chance fights ever on the side of the prudent.

@Stan?

Successful build - Chance fights ever on the side of the prudent.

Successful build - Chance fights ever on the side of the prudent.

For map ping alarmally_1.ogg could be used as placeholder

Successful build - Chance fights ever on the side of the prudent.

Sparta already has issues with its population limit

D2535

Seleucids have two groups of champs, one group dont have Champion spearman cavalry, so tech would be useless.

Good point! → D2858.

I'm not too sure about this change, seems too specific to be actually useful. Sparta already has issues with its population limit and special techs like this alleviated this problem a bit, even though not often used.

I like it costing only metal, makes a lot more sense. I'm not too sure about the total cost, it might get tricky (especially as ptolemy) to play without extra mines. That said, it's overcompensated by spam and military colonies for map control, so I think this is a positive change overall.

In D2856#122475, @Nescio wrote:

Another idea: make special_war_horses.json the cavalry equivalent of spartans_agoge.json, giving it similar stats, but affects only "Champion Cavalry Spearman".
Historically Nisean horses were highly prized and sought after, but reserved for the heaviest shock cavalry only (i.e. spearman champions in 0 A.D.).
The upgrade_mace_silvershields.json time increase looks fine. Maybe split this patch in two?

Better set human for everyone?

If that's what you want, fine, but it has to be set in the individual templates, for consistency, so the above still applies.

Another idea: make special_war_horses.json the cavalry equivalent of spartans_agoge.json, giving it similar stats, but affects only "Champion Cavalry Spearman".
Historically Nisean horses were highly prized and sought after, but reserved for the heaviest shock cavalry only (i.e. spearman champions in 0 A.D.).
The upgrade_mace_silvershields.json time increase looks fine. Maybe split this patch in two?

Actually I prefer the previous version. Also, the indentation of the city phase line is wrong.

@Feldfeld care to accept again if it's good?

Might help https://stackoverflow.com/questions/6121792/how-to-check-if-a-cpu-supports-the-sse3-instruction-set

Welcome improvement.

In D2851#122276, @Nescio wrote:

The idea is nice, the implementation is wrong.
template_unit_cavalry_melee.xml and template_unit_infantry_melee.xml set a first preference to Human, which is inherited by all their children, i.e. this patch removes the second preference (Siege), but keeps the first.
What I would recommend is:

• remove <PreferredClasses> from *_melee.xml;
• set <PreferredClasses> to Human or Organic in *_pikeman.xml and *_spearman.xml;
• set <PreferredClasses> to Unit or Unit+!Ship in *_axeman.xml and *_swordsman.xml;
• remove <PreferredClasses> from *_maceman.xml.

See also D1354.
[EDIT] While at it:

• remove <PreferredClasses> from *_ranged.xml;
• set <PreferredClasses> to Human in *_archer.xml, *_javelinist.xml, *_slinger.xml.

Successful build - Chance fights ever on the side of the prudent.

Build failure - The Moirai have given mortals hearts that can endure.