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[gameplay] move will to fight technology from fortress to wonder
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Authored by Nescio on Jan 10 2021, 7:10 PM.

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Summary

The “Will to Fight” (attack_soldiers_will.json) is very powerful and also very expensive. It's currently researchable at the fortress. This patch moves it to the wonder instead, for several reasons:

  • 0 A.D.'s wonders are basically super temples. What better location to inspire your army to fight than at a major religious site?
  • The technologies strings mention higher pay. Since sanctuaries are sacred and stealing from gods is not supposed to go unpunished (at least in theory), it was quite usual in antiquity for states to store their treasures in temples. Some examples:
    • numerous Greek city-states had treasure houses at Panhellenic sites such as Delphi or Olympia, partly for emergencies (e.g. rebuilding your city after it was destroyed by an earthquake), partly to gain favour with the gods (look at all these nice things we keep at your house), and partly for propoganda (showing off to the rest of the Greek world how rich you are);
    • the treasure of the Delian League was initially located at the temple of Apollo on Delos, before it was moved to the Athenian acropolis (giving Athens even more control);
    • during the Early Republic, the Roman treasure was located at the temple of Saturn;
    • the sanctuary of Corent (the new Gaul wonder) had a mint.
  • It provides an extra incentive to build wonders.

Because wonders are much more expensive than fortresses, this patch also removes the technology's wood and stone costs (which didn't make much sense anyway), to compensate.

Test Plan

Agree with the new location and the new cost.

Event Timeline

Nescio created this revision.Jan 10 2021, 7:10 PM
Owners added a subscriber: Restricted Owners Package.Jan 10 2021, 7:10 PM

Build is green

builderr-debug-macos.txt
ld: warning: text-based stub file /System/Library/Frameworks//CoreAudio.framework/CoreAudio.tbd and library file /System/Library/Frameworks//CoreAudio.framework/CoreAudio are out of sync. Falling back to library file for linking.
ld: warning: text-based stub file /System/Library/Frameworks//AudioToolbox.framework/AudioToolbox.tbd and library file /System/Library/Frameworks//AudioToolbox.framework/AudioToolbox are out of sync. Falling back to library file for linking.
ld: warning: text-based stub file /System/Library/Frameworks//ForceFeedback.framework/ForceFeedback.tbd and library file /System/Library/Frameworks//ForceFeedback.framework/ForceFeedback are out of sync. Falling back to library file for linking.
ld: warning: text-based stub file /System/Library/Frameworks//CoreVideo.framework/CoreVideo.tbd and library file /System/Library/Frameworks//CoreVideo.framework/CoreVideo are out of sync. Falling back to library file for linking.
ld: warning: text-based stu

See https://jenkins.wildfiregames.com/job/macos-differential/2751/display/redirect for more details.

Nescio requested review of this revision.Jan 10 2021, 7:18 PM
borg- added a subscriber: borg-.Jan 10 2021, 8:54 PM

I don't particularly like this change. Most games multiplayer games have "no wonder" rules. I also don't think that a combat technology makes sense in this structure, I prefer it in Fortress.

Palaxin added a subscriber: Palaxin.EditedJan 16 2021, 10:04 PM

To me, "Will to Fight" always felt as the super late game tech par excellence, meant for the finishing blow. If having a temporal effect (about 3-5 minutes), I could even imagine it being more powerful (additional defensive bonuses), giving you a boost similar to a Titan in Age of Mythology or the Ragnarok God power (turning all your gatherers into strong fighters).
As the wonder fulfills a similar role, @Nescio's proposal sounds reasonable to me.

However I can also understand @borg-'s reasoning. Also, unit training has been shifted away from the fortress, so it would be nice to have something to fill that void. So I suggest the fortress for a permanent combat tech and the wonder for a temporal "super boost" tech.

If that sounds too complicated, have a defensive super late game tech (e.g. +2 resistance for all units) in the fortress and the offensive "Will to Fight" tech in the wonder. Actually that sounds quite reasonable to me on a second thought, to balance/counter the offensive potential of "Will to Fight" with a roughly equal defensive boost.

Age of Mythology is a nice game, but temporary effects like god powers are not (yet) possible in 0 A.D., to the best of my knowledge: auras last as long as their entities last.
As for your last point, +2 resistance, +25% health, +25% attack damage, and −20% attack time are more or less equivalent: they allow your troops to inflict a quarter more damage before they're killed. I'm unsure how another one would make gameplay more interesting, but if other people want it too, fine by me; technologies are easy to add or remove.

Palaxin added a comment.EditedJan 17 2021, 12:03 AM

Age of Mythology is a nice game, but temporary effects like god powers are not (yet) possible in 0 A.D., to the best of my knowledge: auras last as long as their entities last.

True, that would clearly be outside the scope of this patch and require one of the core developers... Consider it as brainstorming

As for your last point, +2 resistance, +25% health, +25% attack damage, and −20% attack time are more or less equivalent: they allow your troops to inflict a quarter more damage before they're killed. I'm unsure how another one would make gameplay more interesting, but if other people want it too, fine by me; technologies are easy to add or remove.

Yes and no. I have no recent experience of playing/observing the game, let alone knowing the details of the current meta. However, combat is rarely set in "laboratory conditions", but is asymmetric in one way or another where offensive power and defensive power will interact differently with the specific circumstances. E.g. I could imagine that in the context of a turtling strategy with a considerable amount of supporting buildings, a defensive boost would allow your troops to delay the pressure of the storming troops giving you the deciding edge. Alternatively, if you want to quickly destroy a few buildings or siege engines, the offensive power will do the job better than the defensive...

In D3318#147366, @borg- wrote:

Most games multiplayer games have "no wonder" rules.

Obviously out of scope, but can you elaborate why they have this rule?