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Hero aura revision
Needs ReviewPublic

Authored by Hannibal_Barca on Mar 18 2018, 5:13 PM.

Details

Summary

This patch aims to make the choice of heroes less obvious and more based on the strategy employed by the player.
Changes discussed with: @smiley @Feldfeld @temple

Test Plan

Test hero auras and see if they work.
Test them from the balancing point of view.
Review and commit for A24, let A23 be imbalanced so we can collect more complaints and blames.

Diff Detail

Repository
rP 0 A.D. Public Repository
Lint
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Unit
Unit Tests Skipped
Build Status
Buildable 5863
Build 9806: Vulcan BuildJenkins

Event Timeline

Hannibal_Barca created this revision.Mar 18 2018, 5:13 PM
Vulcan added a subscriber: Vulcan.Mar 18 2018, 5:18 PM

Successful build - Chance fights ever on the side of the prudent.

Link to build: https://jenkins.wildfiregames.com/job/differential/270/display/redirect

Angen added a subscriber: Angen.Mar 18 2018, 6:03 PM

@Hannibal_Barca Do you know this cannot go out with A23 ?

Palaxin added inline comments.
binaries/data/mods/public/simulation/data/auras/units/heroes/iber_hero_viriato_2.json
12

either "300% loot" or "+200% loot" or "200% loot increase" :)

binaries/data/mods/public/simulation/data/auras/units/heroes/sele_hero_seleucus_victor.json
6–12

0.9

binaries/data/mods/public/simulation/templates/special/player/player.xml
49

What if you train Alexander/Darius, build the max number of structures, sacrifice the hero and train another hero?

I don't see why another alpha should ensure the continuation of such failure auras.
Some are useless and others are OP, the release should wait on this.

As for the delete hero afterwards, that is possible for all heroes and cannot be avoided until a proper scheme is implemented (1 hero can only be trained once per battle)

Successful build - Chance fights ever on the side of the prudent.

Link to build: https://jenkins.wildfiregames.com/job/differential/271/display/redirect

Palaxin added inline comments.Mar 18 2018, 8:00 PM
binaries/data/mods/public/simulation/data/auras/units/heroes/iber_hero_viriato_2.json
12

perhaps this is nitpicking but "+" already implies an "increase" (actually you are saying that you increase the increase of the loot...), so "+200% loot" or "200% loot increase" IMO

(That a hero needs a +200% loot bonus for balance tells us that loot needs to be rethought.)

I can change the Darius one to increase resource trickle rates and the territory influence but Alexander should influence libraries (historicity)

Hannibal_Barca edited the test plan for this revision. (Show Details)Mar 21 2018, 5:28 PM

I wrote a script that generates a table with the heroes and their auras, so I could look at them in a spreadsheet rather than one by one. (A couple of heroes can train units, Ptolemy IV increases the juggernaut limit, and maybe I've overlooked other things too.)

Ptolemy IV needs a tooltip documenting the Juggernaut increase.

I wonder why you changed some ranges to 45m but not others? Seems to me that it could also be done for Hannibal, Maharbal, Vercingetorix, Amanirenas, Philip, Cleopatra (all three), Ptolemy IV, Marcellus (both), Brasidas, Leonidas.

Brasidas should lose the armor bonus.

binaries/data/mods/public/simulation/data/auras/units/heroes/athen_hero_pericles_1.json
8

Let's make this global.

binaries/data/mods/public/simulation/data/auras/units/heroes/athen_hero_pericles_3.json
12

Okay, but 10%.

binaries/data/mods/public/simulation/data/auras/units/heroes/cart_hero_hamilcar_2.json
3 ↗(On Diff #6210)

Okay.

binaries/data/mods/public/simulation/data/auras/units/heroes/gaul_hero_brennus.json
9

Regular units have 10 loot total, so +15 is already a 150% bonus, much higher than other bonuses.

binaries/data/mods/public/simulation/data/auras/units/heroes/gaul_hero_viridomarus.json
8

+15% global should be enough.

binaries/data/mods/public/simulation/data/auras/units/heroes/iber_hero_viriato_2.json
12

This is less than Brennus, but Viriato has another bonus so this seems fine to me.

binaries/data/mods/public/simulation/data/auras/units/heroes/mace_hero_alexander_2.json
3–4

I think 60m was fine.

10

Okay, since the civic center one wasn't too useful.

binaries/data/mods/public/simulation/data/auras/units/heroes/mace_hero_demetrius.json
19 ↗(On Diff #6210)

Range is too much, but attack is okay.

binaries/data/mods/public/simulation/data/auras/units/heroes/maur_hero_chandragupta_1.json
10

I don't think this will be useful.

binaries/data/mods/public/simulation/data/auras/units/heroes/maur_hero_chandragupta_2.json
9

Ele hero can train champs, but still should have an aura. So this is okay, except the value's too high, 25% seems more reasonable.

binaries/data/mods/public/simulation/data/auras/units/heroes/pers_hero_cyrus.json
3 ↗(On Diff #6210)

Okay.

binaries/data/mods/public/simulation/data/auras/units/heroes/pers_hero_xerxes_2.json
11 ↗(On Diff #6210)

Okay, but 15%.

binaries/data/mods/public/simulation/data/auras/units/heroes/rome_hero_maximus.json
10 ↗(On Diff #6210)

Okay.

binaries/data/mods/public/simulation/data/auras/units/heroes/sele_hero_antiochus_great.json
3 ↗(On Diff #6210)

Okay. (radius)

binaries/data/mods/public/simulation/data/auras/units/heroes/sele_hero_seleucus_victor.json
15

That's too much. I think the old bonus is fine.

binaries/data/mods/public/simulation/data/auras/units/heroes/spart_hero_agis.json
18

Agis needs an aura so this is okay.

binaries/data/mods/public/simulation/templates/units/mace_hero_alexander.xml
24

Theaters are +20% territory, plus Alexander has a +10% aura, so that seems too much.
Libraries are okay.

binaries/data/mods/public/simulation/templates/units/pers_hero_darius.xml
16

Sure.

elexis added inline comments.Mar 23 2018, 9:49 PM
binaries/data/mods/public/simulation/data/auras/units/heroes/athen_hero_pericles_1.json
8

Global auras seemed bad, because it leads players to park the hero as far away from the battlefield / economy as possible.
It would be the same as a technology researched, but a hero should be involved with the map directly.

temple added inline comments.Mar 23 2018, 10:00 PM
binaries/data/mods/public/simulation/data/auras/units/heroes/athen_hero_pericles_1.json
8

In my head I was thinking the hero was staying back in the city where players were building houses and stuff, so this would free him up to take part in the battle. It's a good point though.

Hannibal_Barca added inline comments.Apr 12 2018, 6:01 PM
binaries/data/mods/public/simulation/data/auras/units/heroes/athen_hero_pericles_3.json
12

Since heroes are from the City Phase by which time most important buildings are built, 10% is an irrelevant bonus.

binaries/data/mods/public/simulation/data/auras/units/heroes/gaul_hero_viridomarus.json
8

In City Phase a lot depends on traders. Initial forests and mines are exhausted and enemy armies are lead by heroes giving 20% attack bonus. If you choose an eco hero it should be bloody well worth it.

binaries/data/mods/public/simulation/data/auras/units/heroes/mace_hero_alexander_2.json
3–4

I chose this because it affects all. No real set verdict.

binaries/data/mods/public/simulation/data/auras/units/heroes/mace_hero_demetrius.json
19 ↗(On Diff #6210)

20% 10% +1 ok

binaries/data/mods/public/simulation/data/auras/units/heroes/maur_hero_chandragupta_1.json
10

Remember it affects buildings captured in enemy territory - with hero nearby they won't go back to enemy (without giving actual territory influence and building permits)
Also in certain games a lot depends on destroying/capturing the enemy CC and having their buildings fall to you so you can delete/use.
As a trainer hero it is a nice unique aura of which type we don't see often, it is not OP nor useless.

binaries/data/mods/public/simulation/data/auras/units/heroes/maur_hero_chandragupta_2.json
9

25% plus the above aura.

binaries/data/mods/public/simulation/data/auras/units/heroes/pers_hero_xerxes_2.json
11 ↗(On Diff #6210)

Indibil gives 15% discount too but that's on all units
Here we are talking about units that cost a lot anyway and can be trained from a building with a limit of 2.
So 15% wouldn't be really worth it
I'm changing this to 20% not because its more balanced, just that the discounted cost looks more neat this way.

binaries/data/mods/public/simulation/data/auras/units/heroes/sele_hero_seleucus_victor.json
15

Antiochus the Righteous gives -20% health to enemy buildings, which makes it the 2nd choice after the obviously best Antiochus the Great
Basically this hero is only trained as a weak but long-lived siege (such usage of heroes should be eliminated by a feature of being able to train the same hero only once per game)
Changes summed up is +5% attack and +2 armor with -30% speed (compared to original aura)

Since it only affects 1 unit it can't really become "too much" as its peers do have their own qualities, especially the cavalry one.

binaries/data/mods/public/simulation/templates/units/mace_hero_alexander.xml
24

Keep in mind that theaters cost 500 stone and metal (which should be really changed) and noone in their right mind would really build any actually.

Some changes and modify the other xerxes template accordingly

Successful build - Chance fights ever on the side of the prudent.

Link to build: https://jenkins.wildfiregames.com/job/differential/379/display/redirect

You forgot to include the new files with the patch.

What about these comments?

Ptolemy IV needs a tooltip documenting the Juggernaut increase.
I wonder why you changed some ranges to 45m but not others? Seems to me that it could also be done for Hannibal, Maharbal, Vercingetorix, Amanirenas, Philip, Cleopatra (all three), Ptolemy IV, Marcellus (both), Brasidas, Leonidas.
Brasidas should lose the armor bonus.

binaries/data/mods/public/simulation/data/auras/units/heroes/sele_hero_seleucus_victor.json
15

Elephants are already tanky and without a counter, so giving them +2 armor = +23% health plus +25% attack is obviously too much.

binaries/data/mods/public/simulation/templates/units/mace_hero_alexander.xml
24

Why create a bonus if no one in their right mind would use it?

I committed some changes in rP21714 for a23.

Maybe the Ptolemy I -35% mercenary cost is too much, maybe -25% would be better.

Add new files
Adjust Chandragupta and Seleucus
Remove changes already committed by temple.

Successful build - Chance fights ever on the side of the prudent.

Link to build: https://jenkins.wildfiregames.com/job/differential/384/display/redirect

In D1400#59089, @temple wrote:

You forgot to include the new files with the patch.
What about these comments?

Ptolemy IV needs a tooltip documenting the Juggernaut increase.

I want to keep this diff clean, but yes it should be done.

In D1400#59089, @temple wrote:

I wonder why you changed some ranges to 45m but not others? Seems to me that it could also be done for Hannibal, Maharbal, Vercingetorix, Amanirenas, Philip, Cleopatra (all three), Ptolemy IV, Marcellus (both), Brasidas, Leonidas.

Seleucids and Persians both have the unique cavalry technology. This is to limit the potential strength of a mass cavalry spam (the heroes reduced affect cavalry)

In D1400#59089, @temple wrote:

Brasidas should lose the armor bonus.

Brasidas affects citizens only, Leonidas less bonus but affects a wider category. Agis is a good all-round hero if the player doesn't want to specialize.

As for the ranges of +20% heroes, it could be an idea. But I'm not sure yet.

Is this thing still relevant?

smiley added a comment.May 4 2019, 7:39 PM

Probably. Whether it interests the relevant people is a different question.

@relevant-people

Stan added subscribers: Itms, Stan.EditedMay 5 2019, 11:42 AM

@borg- @Itms @designdocument.

Stan added a subscriber: borg-.May 5 2019, 11:42 AM