Page MenuHomeWildfire Games

[gameplay] enable stable for all civilizations
AcceptedPublic

Authored by Nescio on Jun 7 2020, 10:17 PM.

Details

Reviewers
borg-
Group Reviewers
Balancing
Summary

D1761/rP22984 enabled workshops for all civilizations and removed siege engines and technologies from the fortresses, D2532/rP23746 made champion cavalry trainable at the stable, D2533/rP23781 made war dogs trainable at the barracks. This patch:

  • enables the stable for all civilizations:
    • removes cavalry from all barracks;
    • removes champion cavalry from all fortresses;
    • deletes the now obsolete {civ}_champion_cavalry_barracks.xml templates;
    • removes cavalry technologies from corral and fortress;
  • makes champion chariots trainable at the stable (they are just champion cavalry);
    • removes champion chariots from all fortresses;
    • deletes the now obsolete {civ}_champion_chariot_barracks.xml templates;
  • moves war dogs from barracks to stable;
  • moves archery traditition to civic centre, since it affects all archers, not just infantry;
  • makes the unlock champions technology 30% cheaper;
  • removes the increased cost of cart_temple.xml, kush_temple.xml doesn't have this either.
Test Plan

Check for mistakes and omissions. Agree these changes are an improvement.

Event Timeline

There are a very large number of changes, so older changes are hidden. Show Older Changes
borg- added a subscriber: borg-.EditedJun 8 2020, 5:40 PM

I would like to see this, but it is not so simple.
I implemented this in my mod and we did lot of tests, so I can help you with that.
First point. The cost of the barracks and stable should be reduced. If stables are implemented, barrack and stable should cost 200, not 300 as the current value. this is because you must give the player a chance to change his strategy early and 300 resources are not viable. for example, if I open the game with stables and don't hunt enough or my enemy opens with barrack and spearman, then I need to quickly move to barrack too, so I need a reduced resource cost.
Some civilizations have only one citizen cav, so 300 res seems very expansive.
point two. you will have to increase the amount of acceptable icons on the player panel. Currently, if I am not mistaken, 24 are allowed, with stables this number exceeds in some civilizations such as kushites. if not changed, some construction will not be shows on the panel. You can download "borg expansion pack" to get an idea of ​​how I did it. Hope this helps.

borg- added a comment.Jun 8 2020, 6:06 PM
This comment was removed by borg-.
Nescio added a comment.Jun 8 2020, 8:56 PM

point two. you will have to increase the amount of acceptable icons on the player panel. Currently, if I am not mistaken, 24 are allowed, with stables this number exceeds in some civilizations such as kushites. if not changed, some construction will not be shows on the panel.

Thank you for pointing out the gui problem. Yes, the right selection panel can only display up to 3×8=24 icons. This is something I encountered and solved in my 0abc mod years ago (A22). When writing this patch, I checked ptol, which I remembered had the most structures, and they had space for one more, but I didn't realize kush had even more and has no room for an additional structure. So yes, the gui has to be adapted before this can be committed (or one other structure has to go, which is probably not a good idea).

If stables are implemented, barrack and stable should cost 200, not 300 as the current value.

200 feels a bit cheap, though, since a house already costs 150. What do others think?

Some civilizations have only one citizen cav, so 300 res seems very expansive.

Stables can train champion cavalry too (D2532/rP23746).

200 feels a bit cheap, though, since a house already costs 150. What do others think?

As far as I remember @Feldfeld and @ValihrAnt agree that it should be cheaper.

I agree that it looks like the value of a house, but we also have to look at the overall gameplay. Not everything can be "perfect".
Perhaps we could try a value of 250, which is already a considerable reduction.

As far as I remember @Feldfeld and @ValihrAnt agree that it should be cheaper.

Yes, as we move on to more production buildings for the same amount of units I believe that the cost of the production buildings should also become lower to allow for easier switches between units. Cavalry, in general, are much more dangerous and difficult to field in this game as they don't provide any economic capabilities, except for hunting. So using cavalry is much riskier than infantry.
Investing in a stable and then cavalry is a big expense and as I said risky because you must do damage to the enemy. Even more so with cavalry being separated to a stable as making your own barrack will cost an additional 300 res + time to start booming if you recognize that cavalry won't work, and if the opponent went for a barrack instead of a stable that will be a very likely economy lead for the opponent, which can snowball.
Basically, outside of early rushes with cavalry all made from the CC, I think stables at 300 cost will mean that cavalry will become mostly unused in the midgame. Even at 200 cost I think that will be the case. The reason players still did cavalry in borgs mod was that defending them generally required the enemy 2 production buildings - barrack and archery range to counter the javelin cavalry, which was high early investment to be ready for the cav in time.
On second thoughts I've no clue what's the best approach so just experiment and see what works I guess.

Nescio updated this revision to Diff 12273.Jun 12 2020, 7:01 PM
Nescio edited the summary of this revision. (Show Details)
  • build time 150 → 120
  • resource cost 300 → 250
Nescio added a comment.EditedJun 12 2020, 7:10 PM

I agree that it looks like the value of a house, but we also have to look at the overall gameplay. Not everything can be "perfect".
Perhaps we could try a value of 250, which is already a considerable reduction.

Done.

Basically, outside of early rushes with cavalry all made from the CC, I think stables at 300 cost will mean that cavalry will become mostly unused in the midgame. Even at 200 cost I think that will be the case.

A different but related issue is that structures cost wood, but soldiers cost wood too.

The reason players still did cavalry in borgs mod [...]

Unlike some mods, this patch does not remove cavalry or infantry from the civic centre. Should it?

On second thoughts I've no clue what's the best approach so just experiment and see what works I guess.

That's always a good idea! It works in single-player, however, that does not necessarily make competitive multiplayer people happy.

Successful build - Chance fights ever on the side of the prudent.

Link to build: https://jenkins.wildfiregames.com/job/docker-differential/2413/display/redirect

borg- added a comment.Jun 12 2020, 7:42 PM

Need add tech "unlock_champion_units" to stable too, and there is probably some more specific technology from some civilization that should be added to stable.

Need add tech "unlock_champion_units" to stable too, and there is probably some more specific technology from some civilization that should be added to stable.

See D2532/rP23746.

badosu added a subscriber: badosu.Jun 12 2020, 7:57 PM

Since wood cost has been reduced for wood barracks civilizations maybe we could make it 100w 150s for the stone barracks civs? Otherwise I think we're nerfing the stone barracks civilizations, except for those that can make slingers in p1, since you won't feasibly use those resources in p1.

I personnally don't like the idea of reducing cost or build time of barracks, would make the game more spammy.

I personnally don't like the idea of reducing cost or build time of barracks, would make the game more spammy.

How about the following?

  • stable: 250 wood, 120 s, village phase;
  • barracks: 200 wood, 100 stone, 150 s, town phase;
  • workshop: 300 wood, 180 s, city phase.

I agree with the costs / build times.
Now for the town phase requirement of the barracks I don't know. I feel that it's fine the way it is now. This change could have a lot of consequences gameplay (and possibly balance) wise. We could consider build limits if we want a change like that too but for now i'm rather against

The barracks to town phase was just a suggestion to make the game less “spammy”, but it's not necessary and probably outside the scope of this patch. Personally I dislike entity build limits.
Anyway, what's your opinion on this patch in general (enabling stables for all and removing cavalry from barracks and fortress)?

Nescio updated this revision to Diff 12287.Jun 13 2020, 3:51 PM
Nescio retitled this revision from [gameplay] enable stables for all civilizations to [gameplay] enable stables for all civilizations and tweak military structure costs.
Nescio edited the summary of this revision. (Show Details)
  • tweak military structure costs again

The barracks to town phase was just a suggestion to make the game less “spammy”, but it's not necessary and probably outside the scope of this patch. Personally I dislike entity build limits.

I think it's fine to have no restrictions if barracks cost isn't changed. Currently it's fine in multiplayer meta to stay on 1 barracks village (and even town) phase but if cost or build time is reduced then that could change.

Anyway, what's your opinion on this patch in general (enabling stables for all and removing cavalry from barracks and fortress)?

I don't especially want it, rather neutral on that, but if other people want it i'm fine with it. I just want to be careful about how gameplay will look like in the future.

Thanks, that's good to know. Maybe the military structure cost tweaks ought to be split off into a separate differential. Also, you might want to have a look at D2497, D2686, and D2687, which also tweak costs of various entities.

Successful build - Chance fights ever on the side of the prudent.

Link to build: https://jenkins.wildfiregames.com/job/docker-differential/2420/display/redirect

borg- accepted this revision.EditedJun 16 2020, 5:34 PM

@Nescio Brit/Gaul/Maur need cost 300w to 250w no?
What about same values for estable? 250 (150w 100s) and for Brit/Gaul/Maur 250w.

Anyway, i agree with the new values, it seems better to the current meta game/balance and is also more easy to understanding (before finding many different values ​​for barracks).

Gj with tooltip and removing metal cost for elephant stable.

This revision is now accepted and ready to land.Jun 16 2020, 5:34 PM
borg- added a comment.Jun 16 2020, 5:36 PM

We cant forgot about GUI patch.

Freagarach added a parent revision:

How did you do that?

Top right: Edit Related Revisions...

borg- added a comment.EditedJun 16 2020, 7:15 PM

A question. If cavalry removed from fortress should do the same with infantry?? Tech "unlock_champ" need a nerf since fortress cant train champion cavalry?

Nescio planned changes to this revision.Jun 16 2020, 8:32 PM

Top right: Edit Related Revisions...

Thanks! It's good to know it's possible.

A question. If cavalry removed from fortress should do the same with infantry??

Many (most?) infantry champions are trained at different structures (dock, stoa, gymnasium, temple, tavern, grand temple, palace, hall, mess hall). Eventually I'd like to see those that are trained at the fortress moved, though not to the barracks by default, but that's beyond the scope of this patch; probably more civ-specific structures are needed to do it properly.

Tech "unlock_champ" need a nerf since fortress cant train champion cavalry?

Yeah, I suppose unlock_champion_units can be made a bit cheaper. Furthermore, heal_barracks only affects the barracks, I don't think introducing an heal technology for each structure is the way forward, so it's probably best to replace it with one that affects either all structures or only all military structures. What do you prefer?

borg- added a comment.Jun 17 2020, 1:00 AM

Yeah, I suppose unlock_champion_units can be made a bit cheaper. Furthermore, heal_barracks only affects the barracks, I don't think introducing an heal technology for each structure is the way forward, so it's probably best to replace it with one that affects either all structures or only all military structures. What do you prefer?

Just for barrack and stable. This tech need a bug or some change, I never used. I think it could lower cost and put it in the village phase. Phase 2 we already have a temple that can replace the need for tech.

About "unlock_champion_units" I think it could now be splitted, one for infantry and one for cavalry, so the cost can be lower, facilitating the training of champ cavalry. Like 350m for each.

I think you need to change the barrack cost, some are 300 others 250.

Nescio updated this revision to Diff 12358.Jun 17 2020, 8:18 PM
Nescio edited the summary of this revision. (Show Details)
  • correct barracks cost mistake
  • unlock champions technology 30% cheaper
  • tweaked cavalry technologies
This revision is now accepted and ready to land.Jun 17 2020, 8:18 PM
Nescio updated this revision to Diff 12360.Jun 17 2020, 8:44 PM
  • tooltip

Everyone here, see D2821.

Nescio updated this revision to Diff 12363.Jun 17 2020, 9:57 PM
Nescio retitled this revision from [gameplay] enable stables for all civilizations and tweak military structure costs to [gameplay] enable stable for all civilizations.
Nescio edited the summary of this revision. (Show Details)
Nescio edited the test plan for this revision. (Show Details)
  • Excluded military structure cost and tooltip changes, which are split off into D2821, to keep this patch more focused and reviewable.
borg- added a comment.Jun 18 2020, 3:52 AM
  • Excluded military structure cost and tooltip changes, which are split off into D2821, to keep this patch more focused and reviewable.

Better now, but I think the technologies should be in another patch too. Just let unlock champion.

Nescio planned changes to this revision.Jun 18 2020, 10:01 AM
Nescio updated this revision to Diff 12508.Jun 30 2020, 9:43 PM
Nescio edited the summary of this revision. (Show Details)
  • Exclude cavalry technologies changes.
This revision is now accepted and ready to land.Jun 30 2020, 9:43 PM

Successful build - Chance fights ever on the side of the prudent.

Link to build: https://jenkins.wildfiregames.com/job/docker-differential/2555/display/redirect

borg- accepted this revision.Jun 30 2020, 9:51 PM

Perfect!!!

Nescio updated this revision to Diff 12514.Jul 1 2020, 8:07 AM
Nescio edited the summary of this revision. (Show Details)

Perfect!!!

  • Added pers barracks missing in previous revision update.
  • Moved war dog from barracks to stable.
  • Moved archery traditition to civic centre, since it affects all archers, not just infantry.
Nescio edited the summary of this revision. (Show Details)Jul 1 2020, 8:11 AM
Vulcan added a comment.Jul 1 2020, 8:17 AM

Successful build - Chance fights ever on the side of the prudent.

Link to build: https://jenkins.wildfiregames.com/job/docker-differential/2562/display/redirect

borg- added a comment.EditedJul 1 2020, 1:47 PM

Perfect!!!

  • Added pers barracks missing in previous revision update.
  • Moved war dog from barracks to stable.
  • Moved archery traditition to civic centre, since it affects all archers, not just infantry.

Good news.

borg- added a comment.Jul 15 2020, 3:10 AM

Just a suggestion, why not take this patch to put citizen/champion chariot in a siege workshop?
I think carthage should keep champion cavalry on temple, this is a peculiarity of civ.

Just a suggestion, why not take this patch to put citizen/champion chariot in a siege workshop?

Maybe in the future, but right now chariots are basically cavalry (they use champion cavalry templates), so training them anywhere other than the stable would be inconsistent. Changing that would not only require new templates, but also de-hardcoding the Cavalry class in the AI (e.g. D2251), i.e. it's not straightforward, the game is not yet ready for that.

I think carthage should keep champion cavalry on temple, this is a peculiarity of civ.

With this patch the peculiarity will be champion infantry is trained at the temple. All other civs train all their cavalry champions at the stable too, making an exception for Carthage is probably not a good idea. Besides, citizen cavalry javelineers, which are already available at the centre, as the only stable unit does not really seem sufficient reason to build one.

Nescio updated this revision to Diff 12694.Jul 15 2020, 2:57 PM
  • rebased

Successful build - Chance fights ever on the side of the prudent.

Link to build: https://jenkins.wildfiregames.com/job/docker-differential/2651/display/redirect

I believe this might no longer need the GUI patches since we removed ballistic tower?

Nescio added a comment.Aug 5 2020, 3:56 PM

I believe this might no longer need the GUI patches since we removed ballistic tower?

No, the civ with most structures is kush, at 24, and they still have 24, they didn't have extra towers. Therefore we still need D2806 or D2875. Also for mods and future additions.

Nescio removed a reviewer: Restricted Owners Package.Aug 15 2020, 9:04 PM
Nescio updated this revision to Diff 13453.Sep 8 2020, 11:26 AM
Nescio edited the summary of this revision. (Show Details)
  • rebased
  • since the gui now supports more than 24 icons (rP24028), this patch is now committable

Successful build - Chance fights ever on the side of the prudent.

builderr-release-macos.txt
/Applications/Xcode.app/Contents/Developer/Toolchains/XcodeDefault.xctoolchain/usr/bin/ranlib: file: ../../../binaries/system/libsimulation2.a(precompiled.o) has no symbols

Link to build: https://jenkins.wildfiregames.com/job/macos-differential/1524/display/redirect