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[gameplay] split Celtic civ bonuses
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Authored by Nescio on Jun 28 2020, 11:09 AM.

Details

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Balancing
Summary

Currently Britons and Gauls have the same two civ bonuses:

  • economic structures grant a population bonus;
  • all structures have a reduced build time.

This is probably a leftover from when they were still a single civilization in game. However, either is already a great bonus, especially in the early game, because less time spent on building houses means more available to get gather resources. Having both compounds this. No wonder both Britons and Gauls are considered “over-powered” in competitive multiplayer.
This patch splits the bonuses, keeping one for the Britons, the other for the Gauls, differentiating the two, making them less similar from each other.
[EDIT] The Briton population bonuses are now set in a single json file, instead of in individual xml templates. Effectively this means:

  • blacksmith, farmstead, fortress, storehouse: unchanged at 2;
  • barracks: from 4 to 2;
  • market: from 5 to 2;
  • dock: from 2 to 5+2=7 (other civs have 5);
  • rotary mill, range, stable, workshop: from 0 to 2.
Test Plan

Check for mistakes and omissions. Agree this is an improvement.

Event Timeline

Nescio created this revision.Jun 28 2020, 11:09 AM
Owners added a subscriber: Restricted Owners Package.Jun 28 2020, 11:09 AM

Successful build - Chance fights ever on the side of the prudent.

Link to build: https://jenkins.wildfiregames.com/job/docker-differential/2541/display/redirect

Any opinions on this, @Angen, @borg-, @Feldfeld, @ValihrAnt, @wraitii, anyone else?

This can be an interesting idea to nerf celtic civilisations. One thing to discuss would be if that makes sense to make a separation when the justification of that tech is for celtic structures. I would be interested in the opinions of Valihrant and borg on this.
Also, just to makes sure, does that give back the 5 population increase on docks for gauls ?

borg- added a comment.Jul 1 2020, 1:37 PM

What would be the bonus for brit?

Nescio added a comment.Jul 1 2020, 1:49 PM

Gauls get the building time discount, Britons keep the population bonus.

borg- added a comment.EditedJul 1 2020, 1:52 PM

Gauls get the building time discount, Britons keep the population bonus.

So brit buildings have more health and time build than gauls?
Could this be done by tech?

Nescio added a comment.Jul 1 2020, 1:57 PM

What would be the bonus for brit?

Briton blacksmith, dock, farmstead, fortress, storehouse +2 population, barracks +4, market +5.

So brit buildings have more health and time build than gauls?

Yes.

Nescio updated this revision to Diff 12515.Jul 1 2020, 2:31 PM
Nescio edited the summary of this revision. (Show Details)
  • move brit population bonuses from templates into a separate file
Nescio added a comment.Jul 1 2020, 2:31 PM

Also, just to makes sure, does that give back the 5 population increase on docks for gauls ?

Yes.

Could this be done by tech?

Yes.

Nescio added inline comments.Jul 1 2020, 2:32 PM
binaries/data/mods/public/simulation/data/technologies/civbonuses/brit_structures.json
3–5

This needs a better name and a description. Suggestions are welcome.

Nescio updated this revision to Diff 12516.Jul 1 2020, 2:34 PM
  • finish tooltip
Vulcan added a comment.Jul 1 2020, 2:37 PM

Successful build - Chance fights ever on the side of the prudent.

Link to build: https://jenkins.wildfiregames.com/job/docker-differential/2563/display/redirect

Vulcan added a comment.Jul 1 2020, 2:40 PM

Successful build - Chance fights ever on the side of the prudent.

Link to build: https://jenkins.wildfiregames.com/job/docker-differential/2564/display/redirect

Nescio added inline comments.Jul 1 2020, 2:45 PM
binaries/data/mods/public/simulation/data/technologies/civbonuses/brit_structures.json
7

"tooltip": "Economic and Military Structures +2 population bonus.",

Nescio added a comment.Jul 1 2020, 2:58 PM

A Briton house costs 75 wood + 30 seconds and grants 5 population, so effectively the Briton bonus of +2 population means saving 30 wood + 12 s for each economic or military structure.

wraitii added a comment.EditedJul 12 2020, 11:56 AM

Isn't the Briton bonus then much better than the Gaul bonus?

Maybe an interesting split would be to make one have Economic buildings grant a pop bonus and the other Military buildings grand a pop bonus. Would orient one civ towards rushing and another towards booming.

Possibly, I'm not sure which one is better, the 20% building time discount on everything is quite effective too.

Stan added a reviewer: Restricted Owners Package.Jul 14 2020, 6:16 PM

It could worth a try. But I don't see any historical justification for the population bonus in economic structures.
It could be the case in barracks and fortresses, because the historical arguments for those buildings are fortified farms with enclosure, oppida and brochs.
Those buildings/places were also inhabited by civilians. So it could be justified.
But in the case of the farmstead, the blacksmith, the market... I don't see justification in regards to other civs, historically speaking.

Maybe a striking difference between the Celts and Iberians in regards to other civ is that their civic center are based on inhabited buildings. So maybe a population bonus with the CC could be justified but that's quite a huge bonus at the start.

Anyway about your proposal, that's an interesting proposal, especially if the two rosters will be changed in the future because I have the feeling the Gauls have more polyvalence possible from a historical perspective. It could compensate a nerf in the Britons roster.

badosu added a comment.EditedAug 11 2020, 8:17 PM

So maybe a population bonus with the CC could be justified but that's quite a huge bonus at the start.

I wouldn't mind a bonus like that, e.g. +4-8 cap bonus for CC but without the egregious bonuses for non-military buildings. This is a bonus that does not scale like the others.

For example, just a +4 pop bonus for CC is nullified by what would be an otherwise free bonus for making the initial farmstead+storehouse.

The initial idea behind this patch is to differentiate the Britons from the Gauls by giving each only one of their civ bonuses, rather than both both. That it would probably improve gameplay balance is a nice extra.
If the consensus is it would be better to simply delete the extra structure population bonus for both civs, then that could be done instead.
Suggestions for an entirely new civ bonus for either Britons or Gauls are certainly welcome too.

It seems like one initial idea for the celts would have been that they could upgrade their houses to other structures, which would explain their pop-bonus.

Nescio removed a reviewer: Restricted Owners Package.Aug 15 2020, 9:08 PM

More details here in the three articles I translated with deepl:
https://wildfiregames.com/forum/topic/24495-celtic-reference/?do=findComment&comment=407068

It gives new ideas for unique tech.

If you have any ideas for suitable brit or gaul civ bonuses, please do not hesitate to post them!
This patch is not ready to be merged as is, and ought to be redone from scratch (hence the “changes planned”). I'm holding that off until there is some opinion on what the new bonuses should be. Also, having D2950 committed would make things simpler too.

borg- added a comment.Mon, Jan 4, 11:12 PM

Population bonus for cc would be interesting. As said by @badosu 4-8 are good numbers.

For brit or gaul?

borg- added a comment.EditedTue, Jan 5, 3:12 PM

For brit or gaul?

Both.
Gaul: cc bonus + less cost forge techs.
Brit: cc bonus + better and less cost for towers (tarus marus).

Nescio abandoned this revision.Fri, Jan 15, 2:23 PM

Britons and Gauls no longer get additional population from ordinary structures (D2950/rP24623) so the current bonus is less problematic and can stay as it is. The Gauls received a number of new things in A24 so they are not as similar as the Britons as they used to. The Britons deserve a little something as well, but that's something for a future patch.